Forums » Off-topic discussion » Talk me through serious VW power 1 2

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  Oct. 3, 2010 9:16 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  All right- the architecture of the VW w/c is about the only thing I can use for this project. Though I've played with VW air cooled in the past, never touched a water cooled. I tried to stick with something I knew- nope. Time for a new learning curve.

  I'm targeting upwards of 250 hp. 300 would be perfect. Truthfully, that's more than I need, but it's what I want.

  Can I do it with a VW?

  It was suggested that I could get close with an ABA block with a 16V head tuboed and megasquirted. Wanna talk me through it like I'm a 6 year old??

  Reliability counts, ease of finding parts counts, street drivability.

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  Oct. 3, 2010 9:50 p.m. EvanB Dork

  Turbo VR6?

  Formerly jdmae92

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  Oct. 3, 2010 10:49 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  You want a reliable VW? AND you want it to make power? I salute you good sir in your brave endeavor into the unknown!

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin / GoKart / 93 Miata STS / 01 Grand Prix GT

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  Oct. 3, 2010 10:59 p.m. Ian F Dork

  A 1.8T with a chip and a few mods should hit your target number fairly easily. Reliability, of course, is relative term... but a number of Mk IV owners on the Vortex d.d. similar cars. In theory, if installed in a less-stressful car (re: lighter), reliability should improve.

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  Oct. 4, 2010 12:09 a.m. ditchdigger HalfDork

  Cheap and easy recipe is a .....wait for it... . . . . . 1.8 16v engine with 1.8t pistons. Add boost as needed and use whatever standalone you prefer. The silver scirocco in this video is on its 3rd race season on this motor combo. Autocross, hillclimb and drags http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CckYfolammk All stock vw internals 299hp on a big laggy ol holset for drags but around 225 with a more reasonable t3 or something for everything else. Super reliable, cheap and potent.

  "Sweat is what makes it rock and roll, otherwise it is just folk music with drums"

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  Oct. 4, 2010 7:42 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  Are you referring to 2 different motors (the 1.8 and the 1.8T), or did you just leave off the "T"? Are you saying one single stock combination, or are you suggesting putting turbo pistons in a n/a motor?

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  Oct. 4, 2010 7:42 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  I like the 2 separate turbos idea.

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  Oct. 4, 2010 7:43 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  VR6- gonna be too hard to find components where I am (rural south GA), and I'm not sure I can fit the extra length.

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  Oct. 4, 2010 9:19 a.m. ditchdigger HalfDork

  The pistons from the vw 20v 1.8t installed in the old 1.8 16v motor from Sciroccos or A2 GTI/GLI .

  Hold it all together with ARP hardware and apply up to 20lbs of boost.

  "Sweat is what makes it rock and roll, otherwise it is just folk music with drums"

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  Oct. 4, 2010 11:58 a.m. 93gsxturbo Reader

  If you can use VW power, can you use Chrysler 2.2/2.5 power?

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  Oct. 4, 2010 12:38 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  I tried Chrysler power.

  The problem is that this project REALLY needs a N/S oriented trans with side outputs, and Chrysler doesn't offer anything like that.

  Chrylser flywheels/ clutches are much too large to fit inside the bellhousings of most side output trannys. Mating a Chrysler 2.2 to an Audi (or Subie, etc) trans was gonna be a real abortion.

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  Oct. 4, 2010 4:47 p.m. Brett_Murphy New Reader

  In reply to SVreX:

  There is an article on the site (sort of)regarding this: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/little-engine-can/

  If you can find a donor motor on the cheap it might work.

  It ran when parked.

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  Oct. 4, 2010 6:07 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  Thanks for the article...

  ..now I'm getting a little confused.

  I think I'm understanding that the 1.8 and the 1.8T are different engines. Right?

  Can anyone give me a little history lesson? What motors are in what generations/ years?

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  Oct. 4, 2010 8:46 p.m. Paul_VR6 Reader

  1.8t is the 20v motor that comes stock in starting in the B5 Audi A4 and VW Passat and continuing into the 00-04.5 Mk4 VW's. There's a few flavors of them but the strongest out of the box are early motors, 97-98 AEB and ATW engine codes, they have the bigger wrist pin rods and 400+whp has been done on those blocks without modification on pump gas. Later motors all got an internal waterpump and rods with smaller pins and cast/cracked caps, and are a bit weak in the knees, above 300whp think about building up the block.

  Honestly if you're going on the cheap find someone with a 1.8l 16v (88/89) they are plentiful and plenty strong for your power levels with only stacked headgaskets, head studs and ARP rod bolts. A buddy of mine was the first FWD VW in the 10's with that exact motor in a Rabbit.. circa 99/00

  ABA block is 94-99 and comes in two flavors, early motors (up to mid 95 build) get a forged crank and oil squirters and tend to be more wanted but much power has been made on a cast crank without issue. The only advantage to this block is longer rods 159mm vs 144mm and really only needs to enter your mind when using a much larger then stock crank (95mm+) IMHO

  If you want about 250 a mild bolt on 24v VR6 can do that without breaking a sweat and my 3.2 gets there right out of the box without any thought at all.

  Transmissions might be a problem .... but you didn't ask about that!

  -Paul - 1995 GTI VR6 12.833@105.48 kptuned.com

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  Oct. 4, 2010 9:48 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  Thank you. That's what I needed.

  The trans I'm planning is the Audi longitudal 5 spd FWD with the side outputs. The power target was based on what I thought this trans could handle. See any issue with that?

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  Oct. 5, 2010 4:27 a.m. Travis_K Dork

  A TDI will make that kind of power, but it wont be cheap. It would still get 50 mpg if you tuned it right though.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 7:27 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  I love the TDI's, but don't want diesel for this project.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 7:44 a.m. Paul_VR6 Reader

  No problem, if you have more specific questions, just ask.

  I don't know of anyone using one of the fwd transmissions, but I do know a few using the equivalent Quattro ones in that range without problems.

  -Paul - 1995 GTI VR6 12.833@105.48 kptuned.com

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  Oct. 5, 2010 8:25 a.m. paanta New Reader

  What's this going in? Can you go with an older Audi motor instead of a VW?
  

  That opens up silly possibilities for reliable engines. The old 10v turbo in the Audi 5000 could make pretty good power and there are a lot of used engines out there. Or, for even more fun, a wrecked '91 200TQ or a '91-'97 S4/S6 would get you the 20v I5 Turbo. Those made 280hp on a chip without breaking a sweat. My dad's 200TQ made it to way over 200K miles without the head or transmission ever coming out (original clutch!). The motors live forever and if you're going with megasquirt you get away from their terrible electronics. A turbo swap on the 20v gets you infinite Group B power.

  Less support, harder to find parts than a 1.8T, I have no idea if it mates easily to that transmission, etc. But...it'd have a serious old-school Audi coolness factor with better reliability for a given power level.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 10:25 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

  I kinda forgot about the old school head gasket stack. 1.8L 16v's (PL code) are dirt cheap. If you want to go with the combo we talked about, here's a more detailed list of what you should get:

  1. ABA engine from a pull-a-part ('93 - early '99 MKIII)

  2. 9A engine from pull-a-part ('90-'93 Passat, '90-'92 Jetta GLI, '91-'92 GTI)

  3. ARP Headstuds for a 16v VW

  4. ARP Rod bolts for a fox body Mustang GT 302. They are half the price of the VW rod bolts and you get twice as many, sell the remaining "set" to a VW guy to recoup your costs.

  5. ABA head gasket

  6. 153 tooth 1.8t timing belt

  Assembly is as follows:

  Bolt the 16v head (from the 9A) on the 8v block (from the ABA). Swap the crank timing gear, intermediate shaft (with timing gear), oil pump, oil pump drive gear, and distributor block off from the 9A engine to the ABA block. Put the 1.8t timing belt on it. Sell off all the extras from both engines on the vortex and zero out your budget. Megasquirt it and boost the crap out of it.

  In the end, you'll have $25 in the timing belt, $25 in the head gasket, and $80 in the head studs. The rest should pretty much zero out. You'll also be looking at $25 or so for a junkyard turbo, $? for junkyard injectors (You probably want something larger than the ABA injectors, and the 9A is CIS-E), $20 for a homemade home depot fuel rail. $? for a turbo exhaust manifold (can be made cheaply). So for $200 (or even $300 if you can't zero everything out) you'll have a bullet proof 250hp engine. BTW, Pull-a-part Atlanta north has a million MKIII VWs with the ABA, and Atlanta South has two Passats that should have the 9A. Hopefully that explanation is a little more clear than my drunken ramblings. I seem to forget a few details when I'm 15 or 20 beers deep.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 10:26 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

  Oh, and paanta, I'm pretty sure due to the size of this thing, he's going to have to stay 4cyl.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 10:42 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

  Oh, and three of the cars at Atlanta north are the early ABA's. Like Paul said, big power can be made with either one, but the earlier ABA's should be better in theory. If not for the forged internals, the early ABA's had a more desirable head design, so you might be able to get a few more recoup dollars.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 11:55 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  Actually, you did pretty well 15 beers deep. You are a fairly high functioning drunk.

  I'm pretty sure the ultimate path will be the one you suggested. I was just looking for additional input from the collective wisdom of the all-knowing GRM throng.

  That's throng guys...with an "r". I gotta be careful around here. I already witnessed the disturbing framed artwork the Hongs supplied to Alan McCrispin.

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  Oct. 5, 2010 11:59 a.m. SVreX SuperDork

  paanta: My issue with Audi will not be size or price. I live in the rural south, and parts availability gets tough if it doesn't say "Ford" or "Chebby".

  I'd like to run with something that is readily available. With the VW, I have a chance that one will occasionally show up in the boneyards. Not too many Audis around.

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  Oct. 6, 2010 1:46 p.m. Paul_VR6 Reader

  IMHO if you can find a PL anywhere near you, it'll make all the power without all the work of making the ABA hybrid. That and you can probably get three or four spares without trying.. which means you can run more boost.. I think.

  -Paul - 1995 GTI VR6 12.833@105.48 kptuned.com

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