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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:32 p.m. Gimp Dork

  The good: My wife, after being out of work for over a year, just got hired. GO US!

  Now, some back story.

  Almost two years ago, our senior developer left and I was offered the position. I gladly accepted, as it was a new project and a modest (but not huge) increase in pay. For a period of time (about 8 months) I was doing both jobs while looking for my replacement for the junior position. The company eventually settled on a guy that I didn't really like (but I won't go further on that) and I got to my new position full time.

  Shortly after that I came to you guys. I had gotten another job offer, and you folks were awesome in helping me handle getting another job offer and talking to my current company/manager about getting a (sizable) raise and sticking around. At the time things went great, and I really couldn't complain.

  Now the bad:

  I recently found out that the new hire was brought in at more money than I even make now - this is the junior position. According to the timeline, this also means that for a significant period of time (several months) the junior position was making MUCH more than I was.

  Needless to say, finding out the junior who has been here only a year is making more than the senior (me) who has been here for over four years has taken the wind out of my sails.

  My boss considers me a friend, which in many ways has made this news that much worse. I feel I should talk to him about it, but I have no clue how to even start. You folks have any good ideas?

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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:38 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  I find straight up direct to work well. Not nasty, just private, direct and clear.

  And the you have to decide where you want to take it from there.

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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:39 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  Are you really sure of what Junior is making?

  What are both of your qualifications?

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:41 p.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

  Let me find a thread i started a year or two ago... it was very similar to this.

  Yep, got it.

  http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/weird-situation-at-wor...

  SCAVENGE THE SEA FLOOR FOR NUTRIENTS

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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:42 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

  I think it would have a lot to do with HOW you found out how much this guy makes. If you found out in some reasonable way, I don't see why this would not be a very relevant conversation. It of course would have to be handled rather carefully (not in anger). You obviously have a very clear and reasonable argument here.

  Setting salaries is an interesting practice, and as you can see, there is a reason why they really don't want people to know what others make. The primary way salaries are set, from what I have seen, is based on what they have made in the past. I would suspect this new guy made a similar amount in his old position.

  There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't

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  Aug. 31, 2011 12:42 p.m. Strizzo SuperDork

  careful how you tread here, in most companies asking or telling salaries is grounds for termination.

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:10 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  Do you feel your own salary is reasonable for your position? If it is, I'd leave things alone.

  Personally, I don't care what others around me make and I'm not interested in finding out - as long as I'm making a fair wage, that's all that matters.

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:11 p.m. Gimp Dork

  Javelin wrote: Are you *really sure* of what Junior is making? What are both of your qualifications?

  As sure as you can be.

  http://www.teamziptie.com

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:12 p.m. Gimp Dork

  Strizzo wrote: careful how you tread here, in most companies asking or telling salaries is grounds for termination.

  Probably the reason I won't tread at all, honestly.

  http://www.teamziptie.com

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:13 p.m. Gimp Dork

  stuart in mn wrote: Do you feel your own salary is reasonable for your position? If it is, I'd leave things alone. Personally, I don't care what others around me make and I'm not interested in finding out - as long as I'm making a fair wage, that's all that matters.

  I think it's reasonable for what I do. The other person in question doesn't work nearly as hard as I do, so I just feel like a chump.

  http://www.teamziptie.com

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:39 p.m. Jeff Dork

  In NA we tend to keep our salaries secret. By doing so, there are huge discrepancies in what people make, even in the same position. Talking with European friends, salaries are discussed more openly and there is less difference ( I have not researched this, only going by what I was told).

  Find out what you company policy is on discussing salaries. If it is open, does not specifically say you should not, it would then be perfectly acceptable to discuss this with your boss at a performance review, touch base kind of meeting. I would most likely not call a meeting just to discuss this.

  For what it's worth, I've been there in the past (15 years ago). I discussed it with my boss and got a modest bump in salary.

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  Aug. 31, 2011 1:43 p.m. Gimp Dork

  Jeff wrote: Find out what you company policy is on discussing salaries. If it is open, does not specifically say you should not, it would then be perfectly acceptable to discuss this with your boss at a performance review, touch base kind of meeting. I would most likely not call a meeting just to discuss this. For what it's worth, I've been there in the past (15 years ago). I discussed it with my boss and got a modest bump in salary.

  There is nothing in my contract (just looked) that addresses this issue. Also, as stated before, my boss and I consider each other friends, and just the other day he discussed some stuff with me he probably shouldn't because of our relationship.

  This isn't me making a play for a raise, and if I do discuss it with him I would make that clear. It's more a "think of all this next time raises, reviews, etc come up" sorta thing.

  http://www.teamziptie.com

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  Aug. 31, 2011 2:19 p.m. Strizzo SuperDork

  In reply to Gimp:

  personally, i'd agree with Jeff, keep this info in your back pocket until your next performance/annual review comes up.

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  Aug. 31, 2011 4:01 p.m. spitfirebill SuperDork

  Years ago we found we had to pay engineers more than we wanted to hire them. They were starting out making more than the existing engineers. So, they had to give raises to the older empoyees.
  

  I would worry that Mr New Hire might be trying to take my job. He does less work yet gets more money. What or who does he know or blow?

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  Aug. 31, 2011 11:09 p.m. Schmidlap HalfDork

  If you think you're being ripped off, then find a job that pays what you think you should be getting and quit. My first job out of college, I didn't get a raise for 4 years because the company was having financial issues, but when we finally had a decent income stream I was only offered a small raise, despite them hiring other people under me for more money. At my performance review I told my boss it was BS and that I wanted it fixed. He told me his hands were tied. I found a new job and quit. My friend, who I got hired there once we were stable, told me that they didn't think I would really quit, that's why they low-balled me (HR rep got drunk and let this slip at the company Christmas party a few months later). They may be doing the same with you. It takes a lot of work to find a new job and they're counting on you to be lazy/comfortable enough to not look. If you can get more money else where, take it. If you can't, then be happy with what you're making.

  It's a weird situation, but is it the fact that he has 'junior' in his title and is making more than your 'senior' position, or the fact that he's a lazy POS but making more than you that is pissing you off? It's very common for new hires usually make more than existing employees. Are the 'senior' and 'junior' titles simply based on the amount of time you've been there? Does the junior guy have a lot of experience or is he fresh out of school? What is his education versus yours? If he's got a PHD but you've only got a bachelors degree that could justify (in HR's view) more money.
  

  If you consider your boss a friend, have a frank discussion with him. Tell him your concerns, tell him why you think you're being played off as a chump, tell him what you want. If they can't get you more money, what about more vacation time? What about paying for you to go back to school? Maybe make them sponsor your $2012 car.

  Hopefully I've given some useful advice, but I'm not sure I have (I'm a little drunk - I found a bottle of Woodford Reserve in the cupboard I had forgotten about), but hopefully it's given you some stuff to think about.
  Bob

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:17 a.m. darkbuddha Reader

  What the hell is wrong wanting a bump for a raise. Remember, as "friendly" as you may be with your boss, business is business. And based on my experience, the only one looking out for you in business is you.

  Now I don't know if you should broach the topic by mentioning the junior's higher rate of pay, but you should be able to approach your boss and make an argument for a raise based on your value to the company, your experience, and the amount of commitment and loyalty you've had for the company (tug them moral-ethical strings). Hopefully they read between the lines and recognize the disparity that current exists and fix it, and if they don't, you have every reason and right to look elsewhere for a job that pays more.

  BTW, I've been on both sides of this... I was hired on at a job at a rate of pay that was significantly higher than folks that had been there for years and had more experience, primarily because I had a college degree and they didn't. That said, I didn't know what they got paid when I was negotiating my compensation during the hiring process. That I got paid more than their existing employees was managements decision, not mine. And if it matters, a couple years later (at that same job), I knew new junior level employees that were hired at a rate higher than my existing pay, but I was already looking to get out of that gig by then, and that just put the push on getting out sooner.

  Wyatt

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:21 p.m. SpeedTheory Reader

  Paul, with what you'd mentioned on the range of that junior dev job to me a year or so ago, I think we start our juniors at around double that. Come work for me :).

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  Sept. 2, 2011 11:49 p.m. SVreX SuperDork

  Gimp wrote:

  stuart in mn wrote: Do you feel your own salary is reasonable for your position? If it is, I'd leave things alone. Personally, I don't care what others around me make and I'm not interested in finding out - as long as I'm making a fair wage, that's all that matters.

  I think it's reasonable for what I do. The other person in question doesn't work nearly as hard as I do, so I just feel like a chump.

  No reason for that. Doing a job you enjoy for a company you like with a recent healthy raise sounds like a win all around.

  Stop measuring yourself against someone else. You are letting knowledge (which might not be any of your business) ruin what would otherwise be a great thing.

  I'm hearing you say you are COMPLETELY satisfied with your job until you look at the other guy's paystub. Sounds pretty simple- ignore his paystub. It's not really any of your business. No reason to feel like a chump.

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  Sept. 3, 2011 7:05 a.m. Zomby woof SuperDork

  Strizzo wrote: careful how you tread here, in most companies asking or telling salaries is grounds for termination.

  I've never heard of this. It's completely normal to discuss money around here.

  This is the correct answer

  stuart in mn wrote: Do you think your own salary is reasonable for your position? If it is, I'd leave things alone. Personally, I don't care what others around me make and I'm not interested in finding out - as long as I'm making a fair wage, that's all that matters.

  AngryCorvair wrote: and that right there is why 90% of the time i think ZW is a berkeleying douchebag.

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