Forums » Off-topic discussion » Home electrical help for the non-Bob Villa type 1 2

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  Sept. 1, 2011 7:46 a.m. Klayfish HalfDork

  Just like with cars, I'm not super handy around the house. I can paint, hang a ceiling fan, install crown molding, and those basics, but I'm no electrician or home remodler. Here's where I need help.

  My house is not in a "development", so we have our own well and sewer system. About a month ago, we had a nasty t-storm that knocked our power out for about 7 hours. That was the first time in the 2.5 years we had been there that power went out for more than 5 minutes. So before Irene came, I went out and bought a used 4000 watt generator off CL. Luckily the lights only went down once…for 30 seconds. My well pump is wired directly into the electrical box in my basement. How can I wire it so that if we lose power, I can use the generator to run my pumps, so I have water and sewer? The generator has outlets for 220V plugs (and two 110V), so I've got the spot there. Is this something I can do myself?

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  Sept. 1, 2011 7:56 a.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  Lots of us have our well pumps powered via an outlet, and that's what you want to do.

  Cut the wire (after you turn the breaker off) and install an outlet. Then put a plug end on the wire to the pump. Plug the pump in and it works just like it always has.

  Power fails, unplug the pump and plug it into the generator.

  When the power turns back on, plug the pump back into the regular outlet and turn the generator off.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 8:45 a.m. slefain SuperDork

  foxtrapper wrote: Lots of us have our well pumps powered via an outlet, and that's what you want to do. Cut the wire (after you turn the breaker off) and install an outlet. Then put a plug end on the wire to the pump. Plug the pump in and it works just like it always has. Power fails, unplug the pump and plug it into the generator. When the power turns back on, plug the pump back into the regular outlet and turn the generator off.

  Bingo.

  There are other solutions, but this is the simplest, safest method for using an alternative power source. Other solutions are a great way to burn your house down if you do it wrong. This solution only needs you to be able to plug in a clothes dryer.

  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 8:49 a.m. cwh SuperDork

  Just make sure you have the generator OUTSIDE!! Carbon monoxide will kill.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 9:14 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  Well... this is not an ideal answer - but - turn off the main breaker. Turn off all the breakers. Make a cable that connects your Generator output to your electric stove outlet. Viola. The whole house is powered off the 50 amp circuit for your stove. Turn on only the breakers you need.

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 9:24 a.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well... this is not an ideal answer - but - turn off the main breaker. Turn off all the breakers. Make a cable that connects your Generator output to your electric stove outlet. Viola. The whole house is powered off the 50 amp circuit for your stove. Turn on only the breakers you need.

  I figured this would be posted sooner or later...

  Do NOT do this. It's unsafe and illegal. Either stick with the extension cord idea mentioned earlier, or get a proper transfer switch setup installed.

  There are some safe alternatives described in this thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114845

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  Sept. 1, 2011 9:31 a.m. pinchvalve SuperDork

  Ideally, you want to wire one of these:

  

  A transfer switch for the breaker box, but that requires an electrician.
  

  I hardwired my appliances to switches connected to plug leads. That way, I can plug in the extension cord from the generator to the leads, then simply flip a switch and my furnace fan runs from the generator. You have to do it in such a way that power from the Generator can NEVER flow backwards into the grid, but I prefer to have it hard-wired instead of plugging and unplugging.

  "Don't Sweat the Petty Things." Yes, and Don't Pet the Sweaty Things.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 9:38 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  stuart in mn wrote:

  Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well... this is not an ideal answer -

  I figured this would be posted sooner or later...

  Do NOT do this. It's unsafe and illegal.
  

  I said it wasn't ideal... obviously the right thing to do is install a cut-over box outside BEFORE the power goes out. But if you haven't had clean water in a few days and your crap pump isn't running... screw legality.

  It works and it isn't unsafe if you turn off the mains and everything else you don't absolutely need. All it is doing is feeding power to the bus bars from a different point. The 50 amp stove wiring exceeds the capacity of his 4000 watt generator so the thing will stall even if he gets greedy and tries to do a little welding or run the beer fridge.

  Running a 30amp sewage pump off an 18ga extension cord IS actually dangerous.

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 9:46 a.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  Here's the deal...I'm a professional electrical engineer, and I design generator systems pretty much on a daily basis. I know people do this sort of thing all the time and get away with it, but ethically I have to point out it's not an acceptable method.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 10:48 a.m. Mazdax605 Dork

  Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well... this is not an ideal answer - but - turn off the main breaker. Turn off all the breakers. Make a cable that connects your Generator output to your electric stove outlet. Viola. The whole house is powered off the 50 amp circuit for your stove. Turn on only the breakers you need.

  Whatever you do don't listen to this advice. It is dangerous,and illegal.

  He'll go to buy her turtle wax,but in his mind he won't be coming back

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  Sept. 1, 2011 10:50 a.m. Basil Exposition Reader

  It is more than an ethical or legal issue. "Not ideal" doesn't begin to cover what a bad idea this is. It is just downright dangerous for you, your family, and even people you don't know.

  If that main switch is accidently thrown on while the generator is hooked up, you can send a current back through the line that could seriously injure or even kill someone (like a lineman) that thinks the line is dead.

  If you forget to unplug the generator when the power comes back on and you throw the switch, the generator could become a firebomb.

  Either use a transfer switch or plug your stuff directly into the generator. To do anything else isn't worth the risk.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 10:55 a.m. spitfirebill SuperDork

  I assume you have a septic tank for sewage disposal. If you can pump water into the house with the generator, gravity will take care of the sewage water discharge...unless you have a super system that has a lift pump. Then you have to power that too.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 10:57 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  stuart in mn wrote: Here's the deal...I'm a professional electrical engineer, and I design generator systems pretty much on a daily basis. I know people do this sort of thing all the time and get away with it, but ethically I have to point out it's not an acceptable method.

  Fair enough. For the record... EE here too.

  I probably should have said "As a temporary fix only in an emergency" somewhere but as a guy who has flown in to some less structured manufacturing locations ... On a gig I had in the mid-90s in Mexico I watched two "electricians" hook up a new flexo printing press with 2 sets of jumper cables hanging from the overhead 3 phase. I never did find out if that was temporary.

  I might be a little desensitized.

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:11 a.m. Klayfish HalfDork

  Thanks guys. Definitely don't want to do anything that would put the family or house at risk. Or get myself electricuted. I think I can handle installing an outlet if it's that simple.

  spitfirebill wrote: I assume you have a septic tank for sewage disposal. If you can pump water into the house with the generator, gravity will take care of the sewage water discharge...unless you have a super system that has a lift pump. Then you have to power that too.

  At the risk of sounding like a dope, how do I tell if it's a system with a lift pump? I'm not familiar with those. This is the first house we've ever had with it's own septic tanks. Never had to mess with them before, just have someone come empty them every couple years.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:17 a.m. pete240z SuperDork

  stuart in mn wrote: Here's the deal...I'm a professional electrical engineer, and I design generator systems pretty much on a daily basis.

  sweet...so I can start selling you exhaust flex systems for your gen-sets.......JK

  

  Datsun Pete

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:18 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  Basil Exposition wrote: It is more than an ethical or legal issue. "Not ideal" doesn't begin to cover what a bad idea this is. It is just downright dangerous for you, your family, and even people you don't know. If that main switch is accidently thrown on while the generator is hooked up, you can send a current back through the line that could seriously injure or even kill someone (like a lineman) that thinks the line is dead....

  Right. Really, really bad idea. But if you are really thirsty and no one has brought a water buffalo to your remote farm house yet... and the road is impassible and no one has responded to your smoke signals... and there is only enough wire to exactly reach the well pump so you can't just cut it and patch it in to the generator... and your kids have distended, dehydrated little bellies and big sad eyes... and attempts to harvest dew have failed....

  Main power OFF!!! Only one source may be connected at any time!!!! All other circuit breakers OFF!!!! Emergency only.

  Seriously, get a cut over. This is a possible but ill-advised work-around that people do all the time and often get away with by being careful (or lucky).

  Better?

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:22 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  Klayfish wrote: At the risk of sounding like a dope, how do I tell if it's a system with a lift pump? I'm not familiar with those. This is the first house we've ever had with it's own septic tanks. Never had to mess with them before, just have someone come empty them every couple years.

  I have this situation at my house...

  If you are below street level and have to pump waste up to the sewage system - there should be a box mounted outside with an alarm and a flasher to warn you if the lift pump fails. You will have a holding tank in the ground but no actual septic system or drain field. You will get a bill for sewage from the town you live in.

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:27 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  Klayfish wrote: Thanks guys. Definitely don't want to do anything that would put the family or house at risk. Or get myself electricuted. I think I can handle installing an outlet if it's that simple.

  Since this is obviously not an emergency situation - why not put an external cut-over outside in a location where you can safely run the generator so next time all you have to do is turn off a bunch of things, start the generator and pull the switch. That way - other electrical things in your house will also be available if you need them like refrigeration and/or heater gas power vents (certain types of gas/oil heat require small amounts current to expel exhaust).

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Sept. 1, 2011 11:31 a.m. GrantMLS Reader

  yup - got the same pump but with a septic - also an EE and have backfed my box with the main OFF when we had no power for a week and no chance to get anything from any open store to setup correctly (have since got it setup properly) - not recomending it

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:05 p.m. TRoglodyte HalfDork

  Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

  stuart in mn wrote: Here's the deal...I'm a professional electrical engineer, and I design generator systems pretty much on a daily basis. I know people do this sort of thing all the time and get away with it, but ethically I have to point out it's not an acceptable method.

  Fair enough. For the record... EE here too.

  I probably should have said "As a temporary fix only in an emergency" somewhere but as a guy who has flown in to some less structured manufacturing locations ... On a gig I had in the mid-90s in Mexico I watched two "electricians" hook up a new flexo printing press with 2 sets of jumper cables hanging from the overhead 3 phase. I never did find out if that was temporary.

  I might be a little desensitized.

  Jumper Cables For the shear awesomenessofitall! "Hold my burrito and watch this!"

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:15 p.m. aircooled SuperDork

  Basil Exposition wrote: It is more than an ethical or legal issue. "Not ideal" doesn't begin to cover what a bad idea this is. It is just downright dangerous for you, your family, and even people you don't know. If that main switch is accidently thrown on while the generator is hooked up, you can send a current back through the line that could seriously injure or even kill someone (like a lineman) that thinks the line is dead....

  Another issue with this I would think would be the amperage you might be pushing through the plug wiring that is now supplying the whole house (or whatever you are powering). Obviously this would depend on the wattage of the generator and how much you turn on and the wiring to that plug.

  There are 10 types of people in this world. Those that understand binary and those that don't

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:35 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I might be a little desensitized.

  I worked on a year long construction project in Taiwan back in the early 1990s so I understand - things are different in other countries. I've also met a few former linemen who have hooks for hands, so I understand their position on safety as well.

  edit: Here are a few useful links:

  Popular Mechanics artical on installing a generator set for home use: http://books.google.com/books?id=UGYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=popu...

  Alternate product for interlocking a generator receptacle with your main panel: http://www.interlockkit.com/ (this may or may not be acceptable in your area, check with your local inspector and/or electric utility.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:55 p.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork

  Who is Bob Villa?

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  Sept. 1, 2011 12:58 p.m. foxtrapper SuperDork

  In reply to Klayfish:

  It really is that simple. Just put in an outlet. Worse possible problem you might have is finding yourself a little short reaching the new plug into the outlet box.

  It's a very safe method, and eliminates the theatrics and drama of having a generator fighting the power supply when that turns back on.
  

  As for lift pump, you probably don't have one. Most houses the sewage goes by gravity down the pipe. Only those that have toilets in the basement sometimes have a lift pump to get it up off the basement floor and over into the sewer pipe. Other type is those new fangled electric septic fields. All the old ones and many of the new ones are just passive gravity. If yours is electric, you'd have an alarm and such for it and would know about it.

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  Sept. 1, 2011 2:46 p.m. Dr. Hess SuperDork

  

  http://www.harborfreight.com/100-amp-generator-manual-transfer-switch-42162.html

  I like the plug solution too.

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