Forums » Off-topic discussion » Automotive/AX frustration 1 2

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  Sept. 5, 2010 11:15 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  What do you guys do when you're hitting that point where it's borderline fun or not?

  The local AX schedule keeps conflicting with stuff the wife is doing, my car's not competitive, and I'm really starting to think neither am I Despite pulling 2nd for the season during our winter Karting series, I can't seem to place in the upper half overall during normal events, and am regularly the slowest in my class.

  I've got a lot of emotional attachment to the car (had in various iterations for ~10 years; have a lot of blood, sweat, and tears, as well as my father's blood sweat and tears invested), so it's not going anywhere.

  We don't use SCCA classing, just a real basic 6-class setup based on cylinder count and treadwear (Race vs street tires). I'm in the fastest class (V8s on race tires), and last weekend I was ~6.5 seconds off pace. Ugh.

  Obviously I'd have more fun if I felt I was competitive.

  Now, what I'm not sure is if it's time to pick up something else to drive on track, and "retire" my current ride to DD status, or if I should persevere with my current setup and make a few more changes (I've made a lot this season) that should get me more competitive (like ditching my RA1s for a tire that puts me in the street tire class).

  Maybe I should just trade in the Bronco (that I'm likely upside-down on) in on one of these overpriced Miatas on one of the local used lots...

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  Sept. 5, 2010 11:38 a.m. gimpstang New Reader

  Mustangs can be made to handle quite well if you put the right suspension parts on them. How much are you willing to modify your car? You said it has sentimental value so does that preclude you from upgrading it?
  If you are on the stock suspension setup I would ditch the race tires since thats most likely compounding your problems handling wise.

  I used to autocross a 4 cylinder mustang and in stock form I was donkey slow. As I slowly modified it, it became more competitive and gradually I moved up in the finishing order.
  

  You also should probably review your expectations of the events. Yes finishing DFL can be discouraging but if you view the events more as an opportunity to hoon the car without fear of police reprisal, you could have more fun with it :)

  I am hunger, I am thirst. I can fast a hundred years and not die. I can lie a hundred nights on the ice and not freeze. I can drink a river of blood and not burst. Show...me...your enemies!

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  Sept. 5, 2010 11:45 a.m. paul Reader

  What's your car's suspension setup & what cars are you going up against in your class?...

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  Sept. 5, 2010 11:50 a.m. Drewsifer HalfDork

  I would say you either need to step up, and modify your car so that it's more competitive. Or step down, take off the races tires like gimpstang said, and just go out for fun.

  Better to be a racer for a moment than spectator for a life time.

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  Sept. 5, 2010 11:54 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Well, the car has a lot of mods on it presently.

  In the rear, I'm rockin' the poor man's 3-link with MM LCAs and panhard bar, and have removed the quad shocks. It has FL SFCs and a 4-pt roll bar, and I've got a k-member brace just as soon as I motivate to get the car up in the air again and get it installed. Up front, I've got CC plates, u-jointed steering shaft, solid steering rack mounts, and an STB. And it's on MM Springs with bilsteins on all 4 corners with a 5-lug conversion using SN95 spindles up front.

  Honestly, my biggest issue with that car is that it's a ragtop, and the whole top is just utter crap. I'd kill for a removable hardtop, lol. That and the lack of steering angle sucks, but honestly I don't think I've ever hit steering lock.

  Car very well could be over-tired. I'm running 255/40 RA1s on 17x9" BBSs that require a .25" spacer due to not quite being the right backspacing.

  My thought if I don't pick up something else is to pick up a torque arm and finish scrapping the UCAs, get a seat with some decent lateral support, and fab up a shifter handle that I can actually reach.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 12:00 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Classes are setup as follows: Split between race and street tire is at 140 treadwear, elsewise classed only on cylinder count: 4-cylinders in C, 6-cylinders in B, 8-cylinders in A. Boost moves you up a class, i.e. a turbo Miata would be in B. Rotary cars are classed weirdly to me, N/A 2-rotor cars are in C, N/A 3-rotor and single turbo 2-rotor are in B, and turbo 3-rotor and twin-turbo 2-rotor are in A (I've never seen a 3-rotor out there).

  Other cars in my class include Z06 Vettes, A V8 Locost, a couple 300hp 240Zs, a full Griggs prepped Saleen (with the SLA front suspension), and a few other fox Mustangs with mods similar to mine.

  I'm definitely running the least amount of power out there, but last year in my farily stock suspended Cobra, I was easily running mid-pack. Maybe I'm missing the totally obvious and that 80hp really is the difference here?

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 12:00 p.m. Toyman01 SuperDork

  I decided my second event that the only person I want to beat is myself. Well, that and my son. Probably the smartest thing I ever did. I will never have the skill necessary to be in the top ten. Even running the Abomination the best I have ever done is 12th over all in raw time and like 50th in pax. That is in a car capable of FTD. If Jensenman co-drives (his old car) I'm usually 2-3 seconds off his time. I would probably do better in a Time Trial where the course never changes event to event. One day I'll find out, but for now autocross gives me my spirited driving fix.

  If toast always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it? - Steven Wright

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  Sept. 5, 2010 12:22 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Yeah, I'd like to be able to say, "I'm just here to beat myself", but that works right up to the point where I see someone else's time, hahaha.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 12:31 p.m. JoeyM Dork

  ReverendDexter wrote: What do you guys do when you're hitting that point where it's borderline fun or not? [...] Obviously I'd have more fun if I felt I was competitive.

  I feel your pain. I'm not competative, either, and never will be....I can't afford to invest the enough time and money to tighten up the nut behind the wheel....Knowing that makes it a lot less fun.

  Maybe mix it up a bit; i.e. diversify your diet of automotive events....skip some AX, visit some car shows, go to automotive museums, schedule sunday drives on pretty country roads with friends. Maybe even try AXing with a different group.

  Oct. 30&31, Orange County Convention Center; MSCC's 50yr celebration

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  Sept. 5, 2010 12:47 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  Step "down" to street tires and see what happens.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin / GoKart / 93 Miata STS / 01 P71 Interceptor

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  Sept. 5, 2010 1:23 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Yeah, I think that's the best plan.

  One thing I keep forgetting is that I've never raced this car twice this season on the same setup, so every time I'm relearning the car.

  Might've just found a line on a race seat, too.

  Thanks, guys

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 2:43 p.m. gimpstang New Reader

  ReverendDexter wrote: Yeah, I think that's the best plan. One thing I keep forgetting is that I've never raced this car twice this season on the same setup, so every time I'm relearning the car. Might've just found a line on a race seat, too. Thanks, guys

  if that is the case, definitely stop modifying the car until you get several events under your belt on the same setup. You can't hope to improve your driving if the car is different every time. If it were me, I would drive an entire season on the same setup (exactly as the car is now) . Then at the end of the season, see if you improved any. Then make any modifications that you would like and run the next season. Repeat as necessary.

  Also, ask one of the better drivers if they would take a lap in your car. See what they run and ask for their input into the car's handling. That way you have other people's opinions as well.

  I am hunger, I am thirst. I can fast a hundred years and not die. I can lie a hundred nights on the ice and not freeze. I can drink a river of blood and not burst. Show...me...your enemies!

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  Sept. 5, 2010 2:49 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Yeah, my goal right now is to get the car to where i can do just that.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 3:40 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  Ok, your on RA1's, are the others on V710's and A6's? That would do it right there. There is no way that a 255 section width is too much tire for it. I run on a 275 V710 on my 97 cobra and wish I had the coin to set the car up for 17x10 and a 315 series tire. (running ESP with H&R race springs, Koni SA's, 35mm addco front bar, Camber plates, plus bushings)

  A 275/40/17 V710 or A6 would be a MAJOR step up in grip for it.

  Granted, I gather that you are running a Fox, Some good friends of mine are fitting 275 V710's on theirs without problems.

  How is your turn-in and balance? The big front bar I am running is one of the counter-intuitive things. The strength of the bar is for limiting the camber loss inherent to the mustangs geometry, so it ends up helping quite a bit, but then again, I dont know exactly what you are doing with spring rates.

  Just remember, tires are the biggest difference you can make to a car. What are the other cars running, how old are your tires (how many events, how many years?). I had some V710's that got very old and hard and there was a huge time drop going to fresh rubber.

  RA1 isnt really a great autocross tire.

  formerly known as hotstang

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  Sept. 5, 2010 3:52 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Springs are MM Road'n'Track up front and MM Torque Arm springs out back. I couldn't tell you what the exact rates are. Sway bars are stock 5.0 GT front and rear, with some poly-bushed endlinks up front.

  Motor is all stock other than a drop-in K&N panel filter and an MSD coil. Stock 2.73s/TrakLok.

  Wheels are arguably the wrong offset. They're 17x9 BBS RXs, and run something like 6.25" backspacing. I have to run a 1/4" spacer on all four corners to not rub (back of A-arm up front; wheel-well in back, and that's after beating it with a hammer for clearance).

  Only traction issue I've noticed is getting on it in a straight line in first gear. I haven't had her push during turn-in, and she's never swapped ends on me.

  My thought as of this picosecond is to get the torque arm, get this race seat, swap the RA1s for something legal for street tire class, and get some camber bolts up front; even with CC plates, I'm maxing at less than -.5 degrees on both sides. Caster is 4.5 degrees, and I'm running 0 toe.

  I know I need to replace my steering rack, too. There's a dead spot right in the middle, but it doesn't affect anything but driving straight on the highway. I've never noticed it while on track.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 4:07 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  Camber bolts or slot the towers (or struts) in order to get more camber on that thing. I run -2.5* and it isnt enough.

  Consider finding a larger front bar to reduce roll (and camber loss), but address the static camber first.

  formerly known as hotstang

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  Sept. 5, 2010 4:56 p.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Well, with the large amount of caster, am I still getting camber loss?

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 5, 2010 5:44 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  Yes... The caster is no substitute.

  Most people running mustangs call for 3 degrees of camber or more. I have Max caster within my strut towers as well as -2.5* camber and still have high outer temps even with my large bar, 850 lb-in springs etc..

  formerly known as hotstang

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  Sept. 6, 2010 1:19 p.m. conesare2seconds New Reader

  How about a driving school? Few years back I'd plateau-ed; had an Evolution weekend w/ Tim Aro and GH Sharp and got my eyes opened. Didn't need more car or mods anymore, lol. Persuaded my club to host the event, so I organized and ran it, got it done on the cheap for about half the usual cost. Couple hundred well spent. YMMV.

  North Florida Corvette Association

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  Sept. 7, 2010 7:46 a.m. HiTempguy HalfDork

  The local AX schedule keeps conflicting with stuff the wife is doing

  Uh, so why is her stuff more important then your stuff? Seat time conquers all, and one day out of the week is too much? Of course, there could be solid reasons for this, but still...

  Rallying; It's like skydiving, except you have to dodge trees on your way down!

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  Sept. 7, 2010 9:04 a.m. mtn SuperDork

  One idea is to offer co-drives and try to get co-drives with someone who is reasonably talented. Brings everything to a level playing field. On Sunday, I co-drove a 944 that had a removed interior as the only modification and bald street tires. Because of the removed interior, we were in SSM going up against a 914/6, turbo Miata, supercharged miata... We had no chance, so the owner and I were fighting to see who was second to last.
  

  Needless to say, even though he won, it was a ton of fun getting that thing sideways.

  there’s a lot of debate on this subject—about what kind of car handles best. Some say a front-engined car; some say a rear-engined car. I say a rented car.

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  Sept. 7, 2010 4:55 p.m. Streetwiseguy HalfDork

  Is your winter karting series wheel to wheel? If so, thats your a/x problem. I burned up a pile of tires in the 80's on parking lots. When I started up again, I went ice racing, then mini stock, then road racing. I autocross once a year to support the clubs regional event now, and I tend to nap in the car at trhat event.

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  Sept. 7, 2010 5:56 p.m. Capt Slow HalfDork

  There are a few things you can try

  1) Try being a club whore for a while, its nice to mix it up a bit. As all the big local clubs have their good points:

  American AutoX (best course design),

  Nor Cal UFO (best venue (imho-marina)),

  SCCA (most intense competition)

  Since all of the clubs have varied schedules you can eliminate many of the conflicts that crop up...

  2) Get a co-driver. you can split costs with them, and since they are driving the same car as you, you have someone to beat. If you work constructively with them you can both drive your driving skills to a higher plane particularly if you take data and or video.

  What club are you running, your classing system sounds a lot like the one at the LMSCC, though they don't have a karting series...

  '96 Miata | '06 Mazdaspeed6 | '01 ford focus | '82 Mazda RX-7

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  Sept. 8, 2010 9:16 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  I run with ESCA. I like it because the location is less than 30 minutes away from my house and for $30 I'll get at least 6 runs, and usually more like 8-10. Everything I've heard about the events further south is that you'll pay more like $50, and you're lucky to get 4 runs.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 8, 2010 1:00 p.m. Capt Slow HalfDork

  Your right most clubs are more expensive than yours, and the drive probably sucks.

  Typically we get at least 4 runs, the only club that you risk getting less than 4 is the SCCA, though that hasn't been an issue lately.

  I maintain that it would be healthy to get out to one occasionally (I highly recommend the American AutoX series)

  I stayed exclusively in my home club for a while for similar reasons. It was cheap, we got 4 runs (but each run was 2 laps of the course), and convenient.

  It wasn't until I started running with other clubs that I realized that our venue was terrible, and because ther were so few competitors there was not the level of competition necessary to really gauge your performance.

  That being said acquiring a co-driver is probably the single best thing you could do.

  '96 Miata | '06 Mazdaspeed6 | '01 ford focus | '82 Mazda RX-7

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