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  April 21, 2011 3:58 p.m. TR8owner Reader

  I'm trying to compare vintage racing to when I was racing the same type of cars back in the early 1970's. Obviously the rubber is much better now but I've also noticed that cars seem to be allowed more modifications nowadays. For example back in the day we had to run stock carb set ups on production sports cars. Now everybody seems to be using webers. I'm also wondering about "cheating" such as say for example dropping a much newer V8 in a vintage Corvette or Mustang? Not that I'd really care that much since IMHO its all about having fun, but I am under the impression that its almost "run what you brung" in vintage racing to a certain extent? Is this so?

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  April 21, 2011 4:04 p.m. AndreGT6 Dork

  Oh you know technology just seems to slip in there over time.

  I think the wonderful key to vintage is you race to your abilities and budget.

  I may not be as fast as the other guy, but there is always a dancing partner to play with.

  From my own car. Brake pads are made with modern compounds, the tires as you mention, swapped the carbs, but nothing special and we know things can be done to the engine.

  So its all about the $$$.

  1968 Triumph GT6 Mk1

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  April 22, 2011 12:37 a.m. dougie Reader

  There are many clubs and organizations that sponsor or sanction vintage racing throughout the US. Each have their own interpretation of vintage or historic racing. It can get quite confusing at times when you travel and compete with some of these different groups. There will always be those who push the limits and stretch the rules as far as possible (see any Porsche racer, just a personal bias) to gain an advantage, even in a gentlemen's game like vintage racing. I think the Historic Motorsports Association's rules statement sums up the spirit of vintage racing pretty well:

  STATEMENT OF PURPOSE The purpose of the Historic Motor Sports Association is to encourage the restoration, preservation and use of historic, sports and racing cars. Our events and races are for fun with nothing to be won. Satisfaction and camaraderie among friends is the reward.

  Our serious interest is in the cars. We want to see old cars with racing history RESTORED. Today many believe the term restore means, "...to make new". Webster says, "restore... to bring back to a former condition. We accept the latter. The enjoyment for us is in driving and experiencing the cars as they were. To support that we arrange our race groups by age and their engine size. Modern technology can make vast improvements in performance possible but that is not our desire and our rules are written with the intent to prevent such modification. We want the cars to be as they were not what they could have been. Restoration, Preservation and Use.

  Our events are not intended to offer individuals a "career option". There are other professional organizations which would be a better choice. HMSA is for the less driven (excuse the pun). Driving well is important, winning is not. Safety is very important and driving is a major contribution. Racing at any level can be dangerous. We, therefore, have rules and regulations which we hope will be helpful in making your participation both enjoyable and safe.

  As an overview, we divide safety into two categories: Car and Driver. An old car cannot be made as safe as a modern car. A McLaren with a monocoque tub is definitely safer in a crash than an M.G., Ferrari or Bugatti. The driver of the old car is subjected to more possible injury due to car construction, seating position and inability to use selected modern safety devices to their best advantage. We want you to be aware of these facts. You can get hurt in these cars. Making a car safe is one approach to safety. Making a driver safe is another. If the car is in good order then the driver must go wrong to have an incident. We place a very heavy emphasis on the driver. He is responsible for the preparation of the car (either directly or indirectly) and operates it. We expect entrants and drivers to understand the purpose of our events as stated and conduct themselves accordingly.

  Dougie

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  April 22, 2011 7:39 a.m. Monkeywrench Reader

  I'm trying to compare vintage racing to when I was racing the same type of cars back in the early 1970's. Obviously the rubber is much better now but I've also noticed that cars seem to be allowed more modifications nowadays. For example back in the day we had to run stock carb set ups on production sports cars. Now everybody seems to be using webers. I'm also wondering about "cheating" such as say for example dropping a much newer V8 in a vintage Corvette or Mustang? Not that I'd really care that much since IMHO its all about having fun, but I am under the impression that its almost "run what you brung" in vintage racing to a certain extent? Is this so?

  With SVRA's rule set (which VDCA, VSCDA, VRG seem to use as well), the rules are similar to how they were (1967 or 1972 GCR), with the only exception being "internal parts are free". Bore and stroke are still limited, but this means you can use any crankshaft and connecting rod you want. This can be a performance advantage, but it's also for reliability. Heads can't be changed. As for the V8 guys go, they spec out what heads, manifolds, and carb. to use.

  Also, alternate transmissions are allowed, and here is why: Dog box parts are available for almost every transmission out there. Cars with a 4spd + overdrive are allowed a 5spd (for reliablity), but must carry a 75lb weight penalty (same with any alternate transmission). A stock tranny with a close ratio dog box has a performance advantage due to less weight, but is more fragile.

  Everything else is just what happens with 35+ years of motorsports development. Camshaft, shock, brake, cylinder head porting, and etc. have come A LONG way. That's where all the gains are.

  Like everything, there is some degree of "cheating", as is there are people exploiting the "grey" areas of the rule book. Generally, most of the guys at the front aren't out and out cheating. Tech would catch on. They may be flirting in the "grey", but they're up front because of very well sorted cars and good driving.

  As far as SVRA goes, you can do this. 1 DCOE Weber = 2 SUs. If you install 2x DCOE, you are bumped up a class. Ex: 2xSUs, a TR4 is in DP. With 2 x DCOE it is in CP.

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  April 22, 2011 1:25 p.m. Ian F SuperDork

  Through my own research into this, I've noticed there's a big difference between "historic" and "vintage" racing clubs.
  

  "Historic" will often require a car to have been a race car since some certain date. Historic Trans Am is quite strict about this - only cars that actually raced in the 60's-70's Trans Am series are allowed.

  "Vintage" seem to care less and you can build a vintage race car out of damn near anything. I sometimes wonder if there are more Volvo 1800's racing now than there were when the cars were new...

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  April 22, 2011 8:21 p.m. Vince Reader

  In reply to TR8owner: No doubt the rules do vary from club to club on what's appropriate or safe or fair etc.

  I have a fairly simple view: Safety first, any modification that improves safety should be considered and allowed; I'm a bit of a pureist when it comes to performance and feel anything that was available "in the day" of the vintage is what should be allowed, unless there is truely a safety and reliability issue at hand and that could mean throwing on some vintage Webbers in place of the stock carbs; The "Statement of Purpose" Dougie provided is excellent and sums it up nice.y...

  Lastly I don't see why clubs would restrict cars to "only those with previous race pedigree" when in the day, you brought your car to the track in stock or whatever modified format was possible in that era and had fun. So finding a 1970 or older car of whatever type and making it track ready and as safe as possible to go out and "have some fun with your buddies" to me is what it's all about, previous race history on not. Of course that's just opinion....

  Vince

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  April 25, 2011 9:13 a.m. Ian F SuperDork

  One comment I've read about getting into vintage racing is it's very important to research before buying or building a car. See what club or sanctioning body runs the most in your area and make sure your car matches their requirements, which vary quite a bit.

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  April 25, 2011 9:42 a.m. naparsei New Reader

  +1 to Ian. Some Group 6 cars are completely different beasts now. When you see an E-Jag pull a Corvette down a long straight, you know performance has been improved a little since "back in the day." As mentioned, some groups are strict and some are looser. Also, some cars (like 911s) have basically been in continuous development since they were new.

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  April 25, 2011 5:43 p.m. TR8owner Reader

  In reply to naparsei:

  Interesting point about E types. I'm amazed how fast they are nowadays. If I ever get into vintage racing I want to do up a Spitfire to the nth. The Spit was my first race car forty years ago when I was twenty years old. I would love to recapture some of my lost youth.

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  April 25, 2011 8:41 p.m. Monkeywrench Reader

  naparsei wrote: +1 to Ian. Some Group 6 cars are completely different beasts now. When you see an E-Jag pull a Corvette down a long straight, you know performance has been improved a little since "back in the day." As mentioned, some groups are strict and some are looser. Also, some cars (like 911s) have basically been in continuous development since they were new.

  If a Jaguar is pulling a Corvette down the straight aways, then the Corvette better look for a different engine builder ;) .

  There are some seriously fast Spitfires out there. This is the fastest SVRA Group 1 Spitfire http://www.britishracecar.com/PatRyan-Triumph-Spitfire.htm

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  April 26, 2011 12:44 a.m. dougie Reader

  The Spitfires here in the NW are just backmarkers, the TR4's seem to be the real deal.

  Dougie

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  April 26, 2011 6:50 a.m. Monkeywrench Reader

  dougie wrote: The Spitfires here in the NW are just backmarkers, the TR4's seem to be the real deal. Dougie

  Dougie,

  We had some PNW cars at Watkins Glen a few years back. To get an idea of how they all stack up, that Spitfire was turning the same lap times as Jim Froula's Bluebird. The top TR4, MGB, 356, and Datsun 2000 are turning lap times 2-3 seconds faster than his car.

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  April 27, 2011 8:55 p.m. Vince Reader

  I'm a member of VARAC in Canada. We can build and register to the VARAC specs or SVRA which is good. There are definitely differences between the two and some are very specific to the vehicle. Specifically for the Triumph GT6, SVRA recommends upgrading the rear axles to get rid of the rotoflex set up as well as allowing repacement of the somewhat weak transmission while VARAC does not. Consequently I'm building to the SVRA specs as I can do more with the vehicle and I feel these are reasonable modifications since they render the vehicle more safe and were available "in the day". It's definitely good to research and be tuned into what the rules and reg's are of various clubs.

  Vince

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  April 28, 2011 2:57 p.m. TR8owner Reader

  I've always thought Spits are very competitive in the small bore class. In my day I ran a 1296cc MkIII in F Production. The biggest competition then was the 1275 MG Midgets with the odd upstart Datsun 1600. I probably had more dices with Mini-Cooper S's then anything else as C Sedan used to run in our race.

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  April 28, 2011 3:33 p.m. OFracing Reader

  Small journal Spits are still competitive in both historic and SCCA racing. A Spitfire won H Production at the national run offs last year.

  My 63, 1296 Spit is compromised, built to the lesser of the multiple sanctioning group standards so I can race at different events. I could do a full "Vintage" legal engine build that would give me another 25 horsepower but I wouldn't be legal for "modern" SCCA H-Prod specs.

  I just switch between slicks (SCCA) and treaded tires (Historic) to be legal for most events in both groups. I've won 5 regional championships with the car, 3 in one year in different series but the main thing is I'm having fun on a budget.

  mike

  63 Spitfire

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  April 28, 2011 4:56 p.m. naparsei New Reader

  You also have to decide if you want to win, or just race. The Grand Canyon separates the two.

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  April 28, 2011 4:57 p.m. Monkeywrench Reader

  TR8owner wrote: I've always thought Spits are very competitive in the small bore class. In my day I ran a 1296cc MkIII in F Production. The biggest competition then was the 1275 MG Midgets with the odd upstart Datsun 1600. I probably had more dices with Mini-Cooper S's then anything else as C Sedan used to run in our race.

  That Spitfire I linked above is faster than the best MG Midgets / Sprites on the east coast by just a tick. There are a few Mini Coopers who can run with those guys, but that's about it.

  Here is some in-car from one of the top Midgets on the east coast at Watkins Glen (Mike, they're turning about 2:21s in this video). http://youtu.be/xRZwTO1mg4Y

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  April 28, 2011 7:26 p.m. dougie Reader

  Well, as long as we're sharing race videos that aren't are own........ Here's a quick ride with the fastest big Healey on the west coast if not the US. Still holds track record for a Healey at Road America at 2.43.76. http://youtu.be/cpYazOt3aSE

  Dougie

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  April 28, 2011 8:00 p.m. Vince Reader

  In reply to naparsei: True for sure so I guess I'll be at the bottom of the Grand Canyon and in everyones rear view for at least a couple years.. LOL Bone Stock, treaded tires, some safety related upgrades and a little suspension work maybe in year 1... I'm sure it will be fun in any case.

  Vince

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  April 30, 2011 5:42 p.m. Tom1200 New Reader

  In reply to Vince: I've had a motto for years now about driving a under prepared (read slow) car. "it's faster than a set of bleachers" I'd rather be out getting seat time than watching and wishing.

  On the original topic there does seem to be two mindsets: Do you want to race a vintage car or do you want a vintage race car. I tend to lean towards the vintage race car, I must admit that I'd prefer what HMSA does...no points no trophys just go out, run the car and have some fun. If a lot of the cars I see running were beamed back in time to the run-offs from their day they'd likley fail tech. Some of this is by design, VARA's C-sedan is not SCCA C-Sedan.............this isn't bad, membership drives a lot of how vintage racing is structured. You could prep a Vega or Pinto to showroom stock rules but how many people would want to race them in that trim. My Datsun is prepped to the SCCA C-sedan rules. While the car is period correct it doesn't fit into either HSR's or VARA's class structure...........not that I care I just want a car that is cheap fun. In a perfect world you could run non points races based on lap times and races for points. Motorcycle Desert racing usual will have a sportsmen class.....no points, multiple classes of bikes etc. you just run for fun.
  You could have cars that could obtain an FIA passport but in the USA I think would cause a big dip in entries. My personal belief is most racers don't really want to run cars that would be totally legal in 1965. The choices are the same as they are in modern racing, go have fun or spend huge sums of money to win a $15 trophy.

  Tom

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