Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Ute discussion made me think about SUVs 1 2

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  Sept. 6, 2011 10:34 a.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  We have a 2006 Sequoia that my wife drives. She loves it and it serves us well, as we use it for boat towing, great dane hauling and kid carpooling. The downside is the absolutely abysmal gas mileage. It's horrific. When shopping for such a vehicle (we bought it used), I tried to find something with good towing capacity, enough space, yet a smaller footprint than a Suburban/Excursion. We ended up "settling" for the Sequoia, depressed that I couldn't come up with a better alternative. The size is great (it fits in our 2 car garage nicely), the interior is fine, fit and finish is good, my wife loves it, but the terrible MPG makes me crazy.

  Given that, I have three questions:

  1. Are there things I can do to incrementally improve the gas mileage? I've considered a K&N air filter, E3 spark plugs, etc, but am unsure what actually works and what is snake oil.
     

  2. Are there vehicles that I overlooked?
     

  3. (Out of left field) Is there a non-U.S. spec motor (perhaps diesel even?) that could be swapped in, while still providing OEM integration with existing systems in the truck?

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  Sept. 6, 2011 10:41 a.m. tuna55 SuperDork

  From our search (and subsequent purchase of a transmission issue having Freestyle) the CUV style is better than the minivan style is better than the SUV style in terms of mpg. The only thing that comes close to towing significant amounts and hauling significant amounts of people is a diesel SUV, and that's not exactly a nice and easy proposition, especially considering the cost.

  Other than tires (and tire pressure) and fresh consumables (new spark plugs may help, but I doubt E3 or anything else will make a real difference) I think you're kinda stuck. Maybe synthetic fluids may help.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 11:06 a.m. oldtin Dork

  Tell me she doesn't constantly talk on the cell phone or text while driving that 6,000 lb beast...

  How often do you really need boat hauling/great dane hauling capacity? Every day? A few days a week? A few days a month? A few days a year??? Vs. she likes driving a big honking vehicle, not worth the fight...

  A good mileage commuter car can make a difference pretty quickly - 15,000 miles/year at 14mpg = 1071 gallons of fuel at $4/gal = $4284. If you could do 15,000 in a 30mpg car = $2000.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 11:17 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

  E3 spark plugs are total bunk. An SAE dyno test found they lost power and economy. Run plain plugs in old stuff and whatever factory plugs in newer stuff (if they require the super special iridium whatevers).

  As for fuel economy, here's a few tricks I've picked up so far:

  • Tires & Pressure: Do you off-road? No? Then why the mudder tires? Run highway tires with decent treadwear. I like 3-seasons and dedicated winter tires. Check the pressures and keep them at max. Check weekly.
  • Tune: What oil (type & weight) are you running? Last time it was changed? Fuel filter? Air filter? PCV valve? Belts? I've had great results with plain K&N drop-ins and even better with the real cold air intakes (the ones with separate boxes for the filters and heat shields). A slightly cooler thermostat works great in older cars, but as they get newer they tend to be programmed for hot. On that note, the single biggest economy bump I've ever gotten from a mod is from a proper aftermarket tuner. OEM's like dumping fuel for some reason, so it's worth every penny. Bulldog, Superchips, DiabloSport, etc are all good (stay with a known name brand).
  • Aero: How high does it sit? Can you lower it even a little? What kind of shape is the factory airdam and undertray in? Can you add a second airdam to get the nose blocked down as much as possible? Do you have a roof rack? Use it?
  • GAS: This is the one people suck at. I don't care that the grocery store gives you 10 cents off a gallon, if it's E15 it's going to get 20% worse mileage and gum everything up. All of our cars (86 944, 01 Grand Prix, and the 06 Mazda6) jumped up an immediate 20% in all MPG figures just switching to "real" gas with no ethanol (or at least minimized). Yes I know all of the gas is refined at the same place blah blah blah, but they have different blends. Our grocery store gas (Costco, etc) clearly says it has up to 15% ethanol mixed in, while we still have some Shell and Chevron stations with 0 ethanol.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Sept. 6, 2011 11:27 a.m. DrBoost SuperDork

  IIRC, a few years ago there was an article in a 4X4 mag. They took a Cherokee (was getting around 14 mpg on average) and replaced engine oil, trans oil, t-case oil, and both diffs with synthetic. I am pretty sure they picked up either 10 or 15% economy. Now, that could have involved tire pressure as well, but I dont think it did. The downside is that they spent hundreds of dollars replacing all of the fluids, but those fluids should be replaced anyway. And the synthetics should extend change-intervals.
  I was researching this a while back, don't know if it's bunk or not. I think folks were mixing a few ounces per gallon of acetone. This supposedly helps atomize the fuel, thus allowing it to burn better. I've been real tempted to at least try it. From what i remember, the best test I saw was a guy driving on a more-or-less emtpy highway with one of those economy readers plugged into the DLC. He did a loop of this highway, then added the acetone. Drove a bit to mix it and such. Then the same day, same conditions, same fuel in the tank (minus a gallon or two) did the same loop and the device showed about a 20% improvement.

  You know you are deep in boost territory when you get tire pressures and boost pressures confused

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  Sept. 6, 2011 11:31 a.m. rotard Reader

  If your wife is happy with the Sequoia, just deal with it. You won't get a vehicle that can do all the things it does and get good mpg. Unless you get a cheap beater CRX HF or something, you won't recoup the money you've spent for decades. Let your wife enjoy her truck, and she'll let you enjoy whatever crap you waste money on.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 11:36 a.m. tuna55 SuperDork

  rotard wrote: If your wife is happy with

  It doesn't matter what follows this phrase, it, unfortunately, must be done.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 12:12 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

  What kind of mileage does it get now, and how many miles/year is it driven? Knowing those things will help determine what the payback will be for improvements or replacement.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 12:49 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  oldtin wrote: Tell me she doesn't constantly talk on the cell phone or text while driving that 6,000 lb beast... How often do you really need boat hauling/great dane hauling capacity? Every day? A few days a week? A few days a month? A few days a year??? Vs. she likes driving a big honking vehicle, not worth the fight... A good mileage commuter car can make a difference pretty quickly - 15,000 miles/year at 14mpg = 1071 gallons of fuel at $4/gal = $4284. If you could do 15,000 in a 30mpg car = $2000.

  She is a good driver. And it only weighs 5090, not 6000!

  As for use, she carpools a few times a week, we tow a few times a month and dog haul a few times a month. I've thought about a 3rd car, but it's more than just the gas math. You have to figure in insurance, registration, etc.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:00 p.m. oldtin Dork

  Hmm, sounds like it's going to stay (we have a v8 4runner - trailer towing/dog hauler) - wife likes it - I deal.

  My e36 crap can did let me park Mrs. Oldtin's wrangler (with lift and mud tires) that gets about 11 mpg. Insurance and registration is about $500/year - overall it saves about $2000/year or enough to make my crap cans disposable if I can get a year out of them.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:07 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  Javelin wrote: * Tires & Pressure: Do you off-road? No? Then why the mudder tires? Run highway tires with decent treadwear. I like 3-seasons and dedicated winter tires. Check the pressures and keep them at max. Check weekly. * Tune: What oil (type & weight) are you running? Last time it was changed? Fuel filter? Air filter? PCV valve? Belts? I've had great results with plain K&N drop-ins and even better with the real cold air intakes (the ones with separate boxes for the filters and heat shields). A slightly cooler thermostat works great in older cars, but as they get newer they tend to be programmed for hot. On that note, the single biggest economy bump I've ever gotten from a mod is from a proper aftermarket tuner. OEM's like dumping fuel for some reason, so it's worth every penny. Bulldog, Superchips, DiabloSport, etc are all good (stay with a known name brand). * Aero: How high does it sit? Can you lower it even a little? What kind of shape is the factory airdam and undertray in? Can you add a second airdam to get the nose blocked down as much as possible? Do you have a roof rack? Use it? * GAS: This is the one people suck at. I don't care that the grocery store gives you 10 cents off a gallon, if it's E15 it's going to get 20% worse mileage and gum everything up. All of our cars (86 944, 01 Grand Prix, and the 06 Mazda6) jumped up an immediate 20% in all MPG figures just switching to "real" gas with no ethanol (or at least minimized). Yes I know all of the gas is refined at the same place blah blah blah, but they have different blends. Our grocery store gas (Costco, etc) clearly says it has up to 15% ethanol mixed in, while we still have some Shell and Chevron stations with 0 ethanol.

  Tires: Put new tires on ~4k ago and went with Michelin Latitude Tour. We don't offroad, so no knobby tires for us. I don't check the pressure weekly though. Will do.
  Tune: I think it has 5W-30 in it, but I'd have to confirm at home. Mileage is at ~47k, so it may be due for fuel filter, PCV, etc. I'll look at the K&N options. I know they have a true CAI for it that isn't terribly expensive. As for aftermarket tuners, I would definitely consider it. Any suggestions on researching the various manufacturers?
  Aero: It sits up way high. I think that's one reason why the hwy mileage is so bad. I will look at the OEM pieces, as well as the possibility of adding another. It does have a roof rack with cross bars. We use it very occasionally. I look at removing the cross bars, at a minimum.
  Gas: I am a little bit of a price hound. Didn't realize the impact that might have. Good to know.
  

  Thanks for all of the ideas!!

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:08 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  stuart in mn wrote: What kind of mileage does it get now, and how many miles/year is it driven? Knowing those things will help determine what the payback will be for improvements or replacement.

  We usually get ~14/15 around town and no more than 20 on the hwy. Probably average 13k-15k miles per year.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:12 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  oldtin wrote: Hmm, sounds like it's going to stay (we have a v8 4runner - trailer towing/dog hauler) - wife likes it - I deal. My e36 crap can did let me park Mrs. Oldtin's wrangler (with lift and mud tires) that gets about 11 mpg. Insurance and registration is about $500/year - overall it saves about $2000/year or enough to make my crap cans disposable if I can get a year out of them.

  I really have thought about some sort of commuter that she could drive when we're not using the full capacity of the Sequoia, but need to actually sit down and do the math. From Javelin's sage comments, it sounds like there are some things I might be able to do some things to the truck to at least make it a little better.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:14 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  rotard wrote: If your wife is happy with the Sequoia, just deal with it. You won't get a vehicle that can do all the things it does and get good mpg. Unless you get a cheap beater CRX HF or something, you won't recoup the money you've spent for decades. Let your wife enjoy her truck, and she'll let you enjoy whatever crap you waste money on.

  This may be the ultimate answer. She loves it and puts up with my GRM related activities.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:24 p.m. Bobzilla SuperDork

  dyintorace wrote:

  stuart in mn wrote: What kind of mileage does it get now, and how many miles/year is it driven? Knowing those things will help determine what the payback will be for improvements or replacement.

  We usually get ~14/15 around town and no more than 20 on the hwy. Probably average 13k-15k miles per year.

  You would have gotten better mileage from a 2wd tahoe or 'burban.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:26 p.m. tuna55 SuperDork

  Bobzilla wrote:

  dyintorace wrote:

  stuart in mn wrote: What kind of mileage does it get now, and how many miles/year is it driven? Knowing those things will help determine what the payback will be for improvements or replacement.

  We usually get ~14/15 around town and no more than 20 on the hwy. Probably average 13k-15k miles per year.

  You would have gotten better mileage from a 2wd tahoe or 'burban.

  Yeah no kidding, that's terrible.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:28 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  I know...the mileage is terrible...hence the thread.

  Our truck is 2WD as well. I guess the 4WD version gets even worse mileage.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 1:49 p.m. Vigo Dork

  IMO you've backed yourself into a corner in the sense that its hard to go from a sequoia to anything else and not feel like you lost SOMETHING..

  But as for better gas mileage in the same size region, id say see if you can find a Chrysler Aspen Hybrid (unlikely) or a Tahoe Hybrid (more likely).

  Those things dont get much better highway mpg than yours, but the thing is they are a lot closer to AVERAGING 20mpg than getting it every once in a while. And they're pretty quick, and can tow a lot. And dont have timing belts.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 4:18 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  She likes it and it's meeting your needs, so just try the options. Playing with home aero is fun! I've got some updates in the loop on the Falcon that involves just that. If the vehicle works you might as well try to maximize the return on your gas investment.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Sept. 6, 2011 4:37 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  Javelin wrote: She likes it and it's meeting your needs, so just try the options. Playing with home aero is fun! I've got some updates in the loop on the Falcon that involves just that. If the vehicle works you might as well try to maximize the return on your gas investment.

  I'm going to start playing around with some things and see what kind of returns I can produce. I may hit you up for some aero advice!

  Gainesville, FL

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  Sept. 6, 2011 6:52 p.m. ProDarwin Dork

  1) E10 has ~96% the energy content of "real gas". Usually "real gas" price is high enough that the potential economy gain isn't worth it. The actual change in economy varies from vehicle to vehicle, but I have never witnessed anything like the 20% drop some people claim. That's absurd.

  2) Fuel savings alone... you could buy a $2000 car to drive when not towing/hauling/whatever requires you need an absurdly large truck and be ahead in the game after a year or two.

  3) You overlooked something: a van. You can buy a fullsize can with all the capabilities you require for a fraction of the price of a Sequoia. It will get the same mileage, seat more people/dogs, carry more cargo, and tow the same amount. Trade the Sequoia in on a fullsize van + a reasonable car.

  4) Be scientific about the aero. Do a baseline coastdown/rolling resistance test. Have your wife record all fuel-ups with something like fuelly. Many aero gains are well within the "noise" of normal driving mileage numbers. Get some data to back it up and it will help you determine real world effect.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 7:24 p.m. a401cj Reader

  DrBoost wrote: IIRC, a few years ago there was an article in a 4X4 mag. They took a Cherokee (was getting around 14 mpg on average) and replaced engine oil, trans oil, t-case oil, and both diffs with synthetic. I am pretty sure they picked up either 10 or 15% economy. Now, that could have involved tire pressure as well, but I dont think it did. The downside is that they spent hundreds of dollars replacing all of the fluids, but those fluids should be replaced anyway. And the synthetics should extend change-intervals. I was researching this a while back, don't know if it's bunk or not. I think folks were mixing a few ounces per gallon of acetone. This supposedly helps atomize the fuel, thus allowing it to burn better. I've been real tempted to at least try it. From what i remember, the best test I saw was a guy driving on a more-or-less emtpy highway with one of those economy readers plugged into the DLC. He did a loop of this highway, then added the acetone. Drove a bit to mix it and such. Then the same day, same conditions, same fuel in the tank (minus a gallon or two) did the same loop and the device showed about a 20% improvement.

  I remember that. As much as they spent on that Cherokee, it'd have returned to the elements long before they realized a net payback. Not worth it excpet for bragging rights.

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  Sept. 6, 2011 7:50 p.m. SyntheticBlinkerFluid HalfDork

  If she's happy, leave it be. We've had a '03 Durango with a 5.9L V8 for the last 5 years that my wife drives as a DD. Gas prices blow, but we've managed. We get 19 on the highway and probably 15 around town.

  I have been playing with the idea of bolt ons for a while. I don't exactly know what's available for a Sequoia (I imagine it's the same stuff for a Tundra) but I'm looking at stuff like Intake (manifold and CAI), Headers, Exhaust, Chip, tires, and synthetic fluids. Eventually it will be my DD so I kind of want to have it in better running order for mileage and towing.

  Also we have another thing we've been doing. If say gas is above $3.50 (which it's been for a while now) we don't put more than $60 in the tank. Yeah it's less gas in the truck but it keeps costs down and we don't fill it up any more than we did before. If I had to top it off right now it would be $80. I only have 24 gallon tank.

  '95 Jeep Cherokee / '80 Mazda Rx-7 / '68 Corvair Monza Coupe

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  Sept. 6, 2011 9:08 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  ProDarwin wrote: 1) E10 has ~96% the energy content of "real gas". Usually "real gas" price is high enough that the potential economy gain isn't worth it. The actual change in economy varies from vehicle to vehicle, but I have never witnessed anything like the 20% drop some people claim. That's absurd.

  E15 has ~90% the energy content of "real" gas before the blending of additives, etc. Many, many people have experienced 15-20% drops (or gains) when switching from (or to) E15. It's not absurd, it's fact. Go look it up, or better yet, try it for yourself. It's not my money you're wasting.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Sept. 6, 2011 9:31 p.m. ProDarwin Dork

  E15 is more like 93%

  They don't sell anything but E10 around here. "Real gas" is not an option, nor is E15 or E85. Last I checked with one of my co-workers (who lives ~50 miles away), the E0 option was >20cents more/gallon... so approx 6% more. Not worth it. Explain to me where to "look it up". Show me a good scientific test that isn't some idiot on a message board saying "my car gets 20% worse mileage!!".

  The ORNL test in 2008 "Effects of Intermediate Ethanol Blends on Legacy Vehicles and Small Non-Road Engines, Report 1" concluded that:

  (done with E20)

  Fuel economy decreased (7.7% on average), consistent with the energy density reduction associated with ethanol blending (in limited tests, trend was observed to continue to E30).

  It also compares E0 to E10 to E15 to E20 (Section 3-3). The reductions in economy are: 3.88, 5.03 and 7.72%. Again, consistent with energy density (actually, slightly better)

  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/int_blends_rpt_1.pdf

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