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  June 13, 2009 10:02 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  I'm tired of trying desperately to hold myself into my seat while I'm whizzing around the track. It's time for an upgrade in safety too. What can you guys tell me about harnesses? I have a 1994 Miata with a Hard Dog Hard Core bar (with the harness bar). The seats are stock right now, but they're next on the chopping block since they're leather, wearing out, and not very supportive.
  

  What should I look forward to paying for a harness? Should I buy two? I know that it is usually a rule to have equal protection for your occupants (maybe an instructor?). Do I want a 4 or 6 point harness? And, are they pretty easy to install?

  OK, I know. A million questions. Somebody might just point me to a harness and say "buy that one". I'll probably just do that then.
  

  Like this one!

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  June 13, 2009 10:25 p.m. wherethefmi HalfDork

  Buy that one

  Inanimate objects are classified scientifically into three major categories - those that don't work, those that break down and those that get lost.

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  June 13, 2009 10:38 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  Hmm. You make a compelling argument. Will a four-point harness be enough? Or should I go six-point?

  I wish I had lasers in my fingertips. Then I could shoot lasers from my fingers.

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  June 13, 2009 10:40 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  Keith, you may want to read this description about your harnesses once or twice.

  Flyin' Miata.com: Photo shows red 2" harnesses with optional sub belt. These bars are drop-shipped from the manufacturer, so your credit card will be charged when you order. Average shipping times are up to two weeks.

  Does that last sentence actually pertain to this product?

  I wish I had lasers in my fingertips. Then I could shoot lasers from my fingers.

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  June 13, 2009 11:28 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

  Six point. A 4-point is not a very good idea.

  The most important thing is to hold your hips in place. Sub belts hold the lap belt down, even if you put pressure on the shoulder straps.

  Otherwise, the lap belt is likely to slide up and/or you to slide down. That puts the belt in line with soft-squishy internal organs. Your pelvis is much more suited to absorbing force than your kidneys are.

  Or, perform a foamectomy on the seat, and get a CG lock. I'm more comfortable with the safety of that, than I am with an ill-fitted harness. And it really helps hold your hips in place, too.

  ...in the world.

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  June 14, 2009 12:20 a.m. CGLockRacer New Reader

  Salanis wrote: Or, perform a foamectomy on the seat, and get a CG lock. I'm more comfortable with the safety of that, than I am with an ill-fitted harness. And it really helps hold your hips in place, too.

  ^+1! Of course I'm biased :)

  Phil

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  June 14, 2009 6:16 a.m. ddavidv SuperDork

  I've used 4 points. They suck.

  If you're not using these for racing, you can buy out-dated harnesses very inexpensively (particularly at year end/year beginning) as racers upgrade. Depends, of course, on the car they come out of but the ones from my enclosed car are usually like new. If you prefer new, then buy FIA ones that are dated for 5 years rather than sfi only that are only good for 2 with most racing organizations.

  They should only be used in concert with proper seats and a roll bar, but I think you know that.

  They are a PITA to live with on a daily basis so if you can retain the stock setup also that may be nice, though they often don't work with racing seats due to the high sides.

  "Having fun is my revenge on mortality"--Dustin Hoffman

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  June 14, 2009 6:55 a.m. petegossett Dork

  A foamectomy will make a huge difference in how supportive your seats are.

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  June 14, 2009 8:11 a.m. Tommy Suddard SonDork

  CGLockRacer wrote:

  Salanis wrote: Or, perform a foamectomy on the seat, and get a CG lock. I'm more comfortable with the safety of that, than I am with an ill-fitted harness. And it really helps hold your hips in place, too.

  ^+1! Of course I'm biased :)

  +2

  I have them in all the cars, even the Spitfire.

  'cause we're aliens, and thats how we roll.

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  June 14, 2009 8:54 a.m. Keith SuperDork

  Whoops, I'll fix that typo on Monday. The Willans harnesses are definitely drop-shipped from Hard Dog.

  I'll vote for 5-6 point as well. You wouldn't know it, but they're actually more comfortable because they keep the lap belt in place. I don't think submarining is actually a concern in anything other than a formula car, but the shoulder belts sure like to pull the lap belt upwards if you don't have a sub belt to hold them down. That's all kinds of bad. The weird thing is that the British seem to accept 4-point belts much more than we do, Westfield only added a 5-point option after the US market bitched about it.

  The Willans harnesses we sell are available either as 4-point or 6-point. They're FIA-rated, which means the webbing is good for 5 years. If having current belts is important (say, if you're autocrossing with a Corvette club that has very strict rules), then you'll buy two sets of Willans over five years, or five sets of SFI-rated belts. The hardware and the webbing is top-notch, I have a set of Corbeau harnesses in one of my car and you can really see where the extra money goes with the Willans.

  You'll find there are at least three different buckle mechanisms. The camlock (very easy to deal with, legal everywhere, expensive), the duck-bill setup (more fiddly to assemble, less expensive, not always accepted) and a classic seatbelt latch (only on four-points, I think).

  I think you can get harnesses re-webbed if they expire. I'm not sure what it costs, but it's something I'm going to have to investigate soon.

  The CG Lock comment is a good one, they're a nice option for improving your stock belts. We have one in the glovebox of most of our high-performance street Miatas at work for when they go to the track, and I use one in the Mini for regular driving. Very easy to live with. They may very well be safer than "an ill-fitted harness" - but the question is, why compare it to an ill-fitted harness? Fit the harness properly, it'll be safer than the CG Lock. There's no reason to have an ill-fitted harness.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  June 14, 2009 9:48 a.m. mw Reader

  I would first determine if you need an up to date harness. I just bought an expired Sparco cam lock 6 point harness brand new for $50 from the clearance section of my local speed shop. Since I only autox and do some track days, it is more than enough.

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  June 14, 2009 11:35 a.m. Salanis SuperDork

  Keith wrote: Very easy to live with. They may very well be safer than "an ill-fitted harness" - but the question is, why compare it to an ill-fitted harness?

  With maybe 1 or 2 exceptions, whenever I've ridden along with someone on the track who has a harness, I have never been able to adjust the harness to a point that I am happy with. Maybe that's just because they don't put the effort into properly fitting the passenger harness, or something.

  ...in the world.

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  June 14, 2009 3:54 p.m. Keith SuperDork

  Most passengers don't put in the time or effort to adjust the harness properly, it's true. Doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't!) be done though.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  June 14, 2009 9:05 p.m. cb New Reader

  u have a pm

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  June 14, 2009 9:13 p.m. joey48442 SuperDork

  I always worry about sliding up a bit in the seat if I were rearended and hitting my head on the bar. Do you think the cg lock would help keep my butt down in the seat, and not just stationary in a left right direction?

  Joey

  Bong hits for Phelps!

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  June 14, 2009 9:16 p.m. wreckerboy SuperDork

  First, check with your sanctioning body - they may, or may not adhere to the "industry standard" for belts and expiration dates.

  Second, many sanctioning bodies may not allow four point belts for on track activity.

  Third, four point belts may be fine for autocrossing, but beyond that a five or six point (I have the WIllans) system, properly installed per the manufacturer's specifications is going to be the most effective.

  Next, you still have the OE seats in the car so you are going to need to find a way to restrain the shoulder harnesses from spreading apart. A pipe collar (see McMaster-Carr or search here on the subject) is an excellent way to restrain the harness from spreading apart.

  "My name is Bob Costas and I had nothing to do with this message."

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  June 14, 2009 9:47 p.m. Keith SuperDork

  Or you can cross the harnesses over on the bar - left harness goes over right shoulder and vice versa.

  Joey, the CG Lock locks the lap belt tight. It's the exact same concept my Jeep Grand Cherokee has on the passenger's side to hold a child seat in place. Oh, there was some laughter when I discovered that. So it should keep your butt planted in all directions.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  June 14, 2009 10:11 p.m. wherethefmi HalfDork

  I made my own seat belt lock for autox. I used a couple carraige bolts, wing nuts and a couple u bolt pieces, clamped over both ends of the belt and nary a movement out of my hiney. When I tighten it, I move my seat back a couple clicks, tighten, then move seat forward to normal position. Next time I'll dip the clamp parts in rubber grip stuff to make it hold better.

  Http://www.clubwrx.net/forum/cockpit-cabin/162710-make-your-own-cg-lock-6-bucks.html

  Inanimate objects are classified scientifically into three major categories - those that don't work, those that break down and those that get lost.

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  June 14, 2009 10:20 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

  Keith wrote: Most passengers don't put in the time or effort to adjust the harness properly, it's true. Doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't!) be done though.

  I put in the effort to adjust it, and I know how to adjust a harness (I've used them in a lot of acro planes). Frequently I find I can't cinch either the lap or sub belts down to fit properly.

  One of the most common issues is that the sub belts feel routed weird. Frequently they pull the lap belt forward more than down.

  ...in the world.

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  June 15, 2009 10:05 a.m. Keith SuperDork

  I have to admit that the installation shown in the picture on our website isn't exactly correct when it comes the sub belts. They really should be mounted further back. Still, when adjusted well they keep the lap belt properly located. If the lap belt isn't cinched down tight enough it doesn't work though.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  June 15, 2009 6:36 p.m. confuZion3 Dork

  Thanks for the tips guys! And I got the PM cb, thanks! I e-mailed you back too (I think).

  I wish I had lasers in my fingertips. Then I could shoot lasers from my fingers.

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