• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 10:17 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  My new copy just arrived and since you are at the front of the magazine your article is always during the first throne room pass ;) I could not agree with you more. I believe that kids will be kids and the ones that have better skills will have less scars.

  Three years ago, the BMWCCA chapters here began hosting the Street Survival program and tapped its group of HPDE instructors for help. I got involved without really knowing what it was about. I heard donuts, coffee and a soapy skidpad and just said OK. It turned out to be one of the most rewarding things I've done. At a DE the participants are all willing and eager - but not here. Some of these kids are hostile, dragged out of bed at O'dark thirty to appease mom and dad... others might have crinkled a fender or had a parent who was helping with the program. Not many were very excited to be there but after the first drill you can see the eyes open, the determination start to creep in. They go from uninterested-with-attitude to all-hands-on-deck in 15 minutes.

  At the end of the day there is a full autocross course setup - and there is rarely a kid who isn't determined to make the best run they can using all the things they learned. Kids who had never felt ABS or heard a tire squeal until just hours before are charging into a turn and lifting to get rotation or opening the wheel to stop it... and they are smiling. If we could host again the next day I'd bet we get almost 100% participation.

  I'm not sure why I bothered to type all this... rambling... except that I have two boys, a kart, and a plan very similar to yours. I think it needs to be published somewhere with a huge circulation of non-enthusiasts so you aren't just preaching to the choir. Its not just good sense - its fun, and it lets dad justify his grandly immature use of a vehicle to the mrs on weekends :)

• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 10:29 a.m. dyintorace Dork

  I agree wholeheartedly. I have a 9 year old daughter and 5 year old son and am committed to making them great, caring drivers.

  One question I did have after reading the piece was getting kids started in karting. While my daughter isn't interested, I can see my son being very into it. Given that karts don't have passenger seats, how do you go about teaching young kids how to drive them?

  Tim, would you be willing to expand on Tommy's introduction to karting? With Ocala Gran Prix not far away, I would love to start working towards some father/son karting adventures.

  Gainesville, FL

• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 12:06 p.m. rogerbvonceg New Reader

  Hear, hear. I've been following Tim's saga with his son for a while. I can't do all the things he's done, but my kids will certainly do some kind of real car handling. I hope we can find a Driver's Edge or similar teen program, but they are scarce around here, and may entail a 3-hour drive up to KC. It would be worth it. Also hoping to do some autocross once they get their permits.
  

  It may be easy with my son, who seems to "get it," but my daughter may fit the mold described above. Either way it'll be worth the effort.

• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 12:14 p.m. JeepinMatt HalfDork

  This ought to be part of a regular driver's test. Just look at Finland. Then again why should people know how to pilot a two-ton metal projectile mere feet away from others. Glad to see that some of you guys' kids are going to join the elite few that know how to properly drive a car.

  "But this is HDTV. It's got better resolution than the real world."

• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 4:41 p.m. minimac Dork

  GPSw you beat me to the punch. Oft times(other mags) the column from the Big Honcho is just a bunch of fluff. Not so with GRM! I read Tims article and thought "I've got to write him, for putting it so well". I re-read it and thought "I've got to tell him how much I enjoyed that". I read it a third time and thought " I'm sending this to my brother for his kids". When I think back to the Drivers Ed program I had in school, I realize things haven't really changed much in 40 years, and that's just wrong. I just finished talking to a friend who is on the school board, and he's going to make sure the Drivers Ed teacher sees it as well. Maybe it will make a difference. Anyways, a big thanks to Tim.

  "If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything" Marilyn Monroe

• 

  Feb. 20, 2010 7:40 p.m. 924guy Dork

  i have to add kudos for that article as well... very nice job!

  insert witty phrase here..

• 

  Feb. 21, 2010 8:35 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  +1. As an expectant father, it echo'd what I hope I can do for my kid here in 15 years.

  If my kid's anything like me, they'll have aggressive driving tendencies. I think I only survived because my formative years of driving were all done in the land of snow, so I was able to learn my limits at speeds that wouldn't kill me or my car.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

• 

  Feb. 21, 2010 9:18 a.m. kreb Dork

  I hadn't gotten the magazine for a while, and forgot how very good it is. Big overall kudos!

  Ditto with the editorial. I can only add a personal tale: As a 17YO enthusiast I was big in the street racing scene (canyon-carving, they call it nowadays, although I did drag as well) I observed competitors crash twice on public roads, and my "career" ended sliding sideways into oncoming traffic. I was lucky to escape with only a bunch of stitches in the side of my head. Fast forward to when I started receiving proper instruction in driving techniques and logging track time: Not only am I a better driver, but I actually drive more slowly and carefully on the streets than I used to - having gotten my testoserone fix in a structured environment. Had I gotten a proper grounding as a youth, I'm sure that I wouldn't have risked peoples lives getting crazy on public roads.

  There are those who will say that teaching youths how to race carts and cars is encouraging irresponsible behavior. It's important to impress upon those people that the reverse is true. A car is potentially lethal. Would you rather have people equipped with guns who barely know how to use them? Or would you rather see them trained extensively by expert enthusiasts?

  Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities.

• 

  Feb. 21, 2010 11:03 a.m. Tim Suddard Publisher

  Thanks guys. We will begin the process again with Katie (turns 15 in June), who is less interested, but still needs to learn car control. I'll see if I can make a drive out of someone not so hungry for the knowledge.

  One of you said that you couldn't do what we had done. Assuming this is financially motivated, I am calling you on that. I sold the whole kart deal, ready to go for well under $1000. That is the going price now for a kart setup and it costs us only a few hundred dollars in maintenance and repair to run it for several years. We only put tires on that thing twice in seven years. Autocrossing is also cheap.

  As for other racing, Tommy went to one kart school and some open kart track days, but all we ever really did was autocross. I didn't have the time or money to really go whole hog on kart racing (potentially a lot of travel if you get serious) and Tommy didn't really have the inclination. Some weekends he wanted to bike ride, some he wanted to ride dirt bikes and some he wanted to fish and boat. Typical kid.

  Now we co-drive his beater E30 at SCCA events.

• 

  Feb. 21, 2010 5:11 p.m. aussiesmg SuperDork

  It was timely Tim, I am trying to convince my son (16, licensed for less than a month), wife and FIL that it is important, I am hitting the old, "we survived" argument.

  Not making headway stating the facts that cars are faster, more of them and drivers are much more distracted behind the wheel.

  Any hints.

  We survived was more luck than judgement IMHO, I just want him to have some of the skills Tommy has gleaned.

  Cornering is like bringing a woman to climax. Jackie Stewart

• 

  Feb. 21, 2010 8:14 p.m. carguy123 SuperDork

  I've told this story on the forum before, but all my kids had to build a car before they were allowed to drive a car. It's made a huge difference in their care of the cars. And yes that includes both girls, even the one who is more worried about her nails than anything else. It's also how she eventually got her husband. She was the only one in the dorm who had a tool box and could use it. He came to borrow tools and never left.

  My son was on the autocross course within 2 weeks of getting his license. He couldn't even drive a stick when he went on the course, but never had a problem afterwards.

  Far from causing them to get their testosterone levels up and race more on the street, it's made all my kids race less on the street. The street is just too slow as opposed to 10/10s on a course. The street is boring by comparison!

  My son's first wreck was during an HPDE. He hit a tire wall sideways when he tried to take a corner too fast trying to catch me. Neither he nor the car was really hurt and he really learned a good lesson. It was tough for his mom to watch, but as it was happening she said she was glad it was happening here as there was lots of emergency equipment. She said the other drivers knew what to do when someone went off and were better prepared to miss him plus there were people around to help. She thought he was much safer on the track than on the street.

  "mobilito ergo sum" I drive therefore I am!

• 

  Feb. 22, 2010 12:22 p.m. rogerbvonceg New Reader

  Tim Suddard wrote: One of you said that you couldn't do what we had done. Assuming this is financially motivated, I am calling you on that. I sold the whole kart deal, ready to go for well under $1000. That is the going price now for a kart setup and it costs us only a few hundred dollars in maintenance and repair to run it for several years. We only put tires on that thing twice in seven years. Autocrossing is also cheap.

  Tim,

  I think the costs of the equipment would have been manageable, but there isn't much kart action around here. I'm in Wichita, KS. Looked into autocrossing, as well, but I haven't had much time for that, either the last 4 years or so. Four kids and all into their own stuff: Wrestling, Swimming, Dance, Band, whatever. Then there was the issue of where to put stuff, and whether the kids would even be interested--especially the ones that got short shrift of my time.
  

  Now that the oldest is permit age, autocross might get easier. Easier to justify, easier to do, no tow rig or dedicated "race car" required, and a kid who's motivated about getting his license.
  

  As for interest, #3 loves everything speed and is into BMX racing.

• 

  Feb. 22, 2010 1:12 p.m. Keith SuperDork

  aussiesmg wrote: It was timely Tim, I am trying to convince my son (16, licensed for less than a month), wife and FIL that it is important, I am hitting the old, "we survived" argument. Not making headway stating the facts that cars are faster, more of them and drivers are much more distracted behind the wheel. Any hints. We survived was more luck than judgement IMHO, I just want him to have some of the skills Tommy has gleaned.

  Have your son, wife and FIL look into the leading cause of death for teens. And ask them how many teens they knew who got in crashes.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

• 

  Feb. 22, 2010 7:16 p.m. dj06482 Reader

  Also enjoyed the article. I've got over a decade before I have to worry about my sons driving, but one thing I promised myself is that they're going to get some formal instruction as soon as possible. I think it is one of the best things you can do for your driving-age children...

  '94 K1500 | '97 328is | '05 Odyssey | '06 RAV4

• 

  Feb. 22, 2010 7:50 p.m. kcmoken New Reader

  Agreed. Getting these kids on the autocross leads to less aggressive driving on the street, by young drivers more experienced with car control. I see little no downside here. This coming from a state with no driver's ed curriculum whatsoever, which is the worst possible scenario.

• 

  Feb. 22, 2010 8:50 p.m. Wonkothesane New Reader

  I've gotta chime in here as well... I'm one of the ones who survived more by luck than by skill for the first bit, though Dad got me started pretty good... Fast forward a few years and I've got a little red Miata (this was a few years ago in college), and I autocrossed regularly. My little sister came to the races a few times, mostly in love with my little red convertible. I made a deal with her that she'll never be allowed to drive my cars, until she can show me she can autocross competently.
  

  She loved to drive on the Miata on course and off, and I let her have the keys whenever she wanted after she did something similar to what Tommy did in the article, we were coming around a blind turn (In the mountains here in PA) and a truck was coming towards us in our lane. She quickly drive the car two wheels into the dirt about a foot away from a cliff wall, got around the truck and put it back on the road with not much more than a bit of wheel spin.

  She now owns the car, I've moved onto a BRG Miata :)

You'll need to log in to post.