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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:07 a.m. 02Pilot New Reader

  Mom's looking for a new car, and naturally I'm the one doing the legwork. She's very selective, but the criteria (particularly the aesthetics) are somewhat difficult to pin down. AWD, occasional 5 passenger capacity, and a strong, torquey are engine are absolute musts. Beyond that, it's down to her personal tastes. She's moving (unwillingly) out of a 2002 Passat W8; I'm trying to get her to sell it before the hideously expensive problems with the transmission and/or engine rear their heads. A warranty is mandatory, so new or CPO only.

  Anyway, I got her to look at Audi, VW and Ford yesterday. She doesn't like the new Passat or the CC, and the Audis are not a good value in her mind (and mine). Nothing much in the CPO sparked any interest. The Jetta passed the visual test, but the lack of AWD killed it.

  The 2010 Fusion/Milan/MkZ seemed plausible, and to my surprise she actually liked them, particularly the Lincoln. A V6, probably the 3.5L, would be the engine of choice. So, finally, my question is: what is the collective opinion on these cars, particularly the Fusion Sport and the MkZ? I've seen some published reviews, but I'd like the wisdom of the GRM universe before I officially endorse this choice. Thanks.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:09 a.m. mtn SuperDork

  I like them personally.

  Does it have to be new?

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:12 a.m. 02Pilot New Reader

  Well, the 2010 changed a lot of stuff for the better as I understand it, so that would be the more likely option.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:31 a.m. mtn SuperDork

  But does the car have to be new, and have you pretty much decided on the Fusion?

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:34 a.m. 02Pilot New Reader

  The car needs to be new or CPO, as a warranty is essential. The Fusion/MkZ is the leading contender at the moment, but it is early days yet.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:49 a.m. Raze Reader

  my buddy has a 2010 fusion, 4cyl FWD auto, he loves it...

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  Nov. 4, 2009 11:57 a.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

  Any reason you're discounting the Subarus with the 3.0 flat-6?

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Nov. 4, 2009 12:08 p.m. alfadriver HalfDork

  Since I'm obviously biased, all I'll say is IF she chooses the Ford or Lincoln, shoot me a message directly.

  Eric

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  Nov. 4, 2009 12:12 p.m. integraguy HalfDork

  My mother's sister always admired the VWs and Audis she saw on the road, but traded her last car for a Legacy Outback with the 6 cylinder. I drove it once or twice (but never over 60-65)...and it's okay, I guess. My cousin talked her into it because of strong residuals (it was leased and my cousin is an MBA). The "regular" Outback must be kind of doggy if the additionn of 2 extra cylinders makes the Legacy 3.0 liter feel like a Japanese Buick.

  I have always liked Mercurys a little more than Fords, and the Milan gives you a pretty good approximation of a Lincoln MKZ....but without the engine. For what it's worth, I've seen 1 or 2 Fusion Sports, and I don't know if I'd spend the money over the non-Sport, unless the 3.5 was part of the package. THAT, and the Sports I've seen so far....both were what Ford calls "Sport Blue", a color available on nearly every Ford product.

  The MKZ with awd sounds like it best fits the bill.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 12:16 p.m. jrw1621 Dork

  I have written on this board before that I really like the Fusions that I have driven as rental cars. That is to say that I really do choose the Fusions over Camrys and Altimas when given the chance. None of my experience has been with the AWD versions but I have found I like the fwd 4cyl and 6 cyl a lot.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 12:19 p.m. Tom Heath Marketing / Club Coordinator

  We had a Fusion Hybrid in the office recently. Best of all the hybrids on the market, IMHO.

  Greg Voth has a Fusion as a company car for his new insurance gig, and he likes it a lot too. It's much, much faster than a Mercedes 300TE, but don't ask how I know.

  I tried drag racing, but kept blowing the apex for turn 2...

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  Nov. 4, 2009 1:23 p.m. Gearheadotaku Reader

  Unless you're in very heavy snow country, why spend the money on AWD? Uses more gas, more maint, etc The 2010 cars are much nicer than the earlier models.

  Old enough to know better, too young too care!

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  Nov. 4, 2009 1:31 p.m. JetMech New Reader

  Gearheadotaku wrote: Unless you're in very heavy snow country, why spend the money on AWD?

  Agreed.

  I have a friend who rented a Fusion earlier this year, and he liked it. Said it was comfortable, fast, and fun to drive. And it actually looks okay. Might be a good choice.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 2:02 p.m. TJ HalfDork

  I was happy and pleasantly surprised at the Fusion I had as a rental. Not AWD. My only complaint with that car was I didn't like the rearward visibility. The trunk lid sits about halfway up my desired back window. Guess it makes for a roomier trunk, and more importantly better aero/styling.
  

  AWD, strong engine, 4 doors....sounds like an STI or an EVO to me.

  Why are these called signatures when they are not in cursive?

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  Nov. 4, 2009 2:20 p.m. sachilles Reader

  Legacy turbo

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  Nov. 4, 2009 2:29 p.m. nocones Reader

  Gearheadotaku wrote: Unless you're in very heavy snow country, why spend the money on AWD?

  Because it makes you feel better..

  Check CPO Cadillac CTS +4's. Should meet all the criteria and I can't imagine it would be more expensive than a new MKS or Milan AWD.
  

  Same story on the Volvo S60 w/ AWD. I think a Lexus IS 350 w/ AWD would still be significantly more expensive, but a Infinity G35 w/ AWD probably wouldn't be.

  I'd also do a Search on an Acura RL. The current generation are all AWD and I've seen a few in the high 20's low 30's.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 2:37 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

  ReverendDexter wrote: Any reason you're discounting the Subarus with the 3.0 flat-6?

  OK I'm biased as I work for Ford, but. Two weeks ago we were doing our weekly grocery shop. Subaru were at Wholefoods (insert jokes about granola shop and granola car) offering $20 gift certificates for a 5 min test drive. Hell yeah, my wife and I signed up on the spot, 10 mins of our time for $40 off our bill ($20 each). As a gearhead I've always had a soft spot for Scoobies due to the WRX so I was looking forward to it. Getting into the brand new just released Legacy I almost laughed out loud, this is really the best they can do on an interior? Bland hard plastic, scattered switchgear poor layout and tactile feel etc etc. OK OK don't pre judge, let's DRIVE the thing. Oh dear. Crappy NVH, poor road and wind noise isolation, really bad engine response (this was a 4 not a 6) along with awful engine note. Steering was direct and reasonably weighted but had zero feedback. Brakes offered very little feel. I will give it to them on trans calibration though, it was pretty nice (given the crappy engine they were working with) and the manumatic feature worked very well. I got out a very happy man, if that's the best they can offer we have nothing to worry about. For the non gearhead verdict my wife just complained about the crappy engine and lack of response along with the noise and bland interior.

  Friends don't let friends drive Toyota's. Toyota - For when you want to show the world it's won and you've given up. Scion Tc...For when a minivan is just too sporty

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  Nov. 4, 2009 3:06 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

  Adrian_Thompson wrote:

  ReverendDexter wrote: Any reason you're discounting the Subarus with the 3.0 flat-6?

  OK I'm biased as I work for Ford, but. Two weeks ago we were doing our weekly grocery shop. Subaru were at Wholefoods (insert jokes about granola shop and granola car) offering $20 gift certificates for a 5 min test drive. Hell yeah, my wife and I signed up on the spot, 10 mins of our time for $40 off our bill ($20 each). As a gearhead I've always had a soft spot for Scoobies due to the WRX so I was looking forward to it. Getting into the brand new just released Legacy I almost laughed out loud, this is really the best they can do on an interior? Bland hard plastic, scattered switchgear poor layout and tactile feel etc etc. OK OK don't pre judge, let's DRIVE the thing. Oh dear. Crappy NVH, poor road and wind noise isolation, really bad engine response (this was a 4 not a 6) along with awful engine note. Steering was direct and reasonably weighted but had zero feedback. Brakes offered very little feel. I will give it to them on trans calibration though, it was pretty nice (given the crappy engine they were working with) and the manumatic feature worked very well. I got out a very happy man, if that's the best they can offer we have nothing to worry about. For the non gearhead verdict my wife just complained about the crappy engine and lack of response along with the noise and bland interior.

  Wow... my mother has an '04 or '05 Outback with the flat 6, and my experience in that car is the polar opposite of what you're describing.

  On a trip back home, I took over driving during the canyon-wall portion of our trip. It was a road I was intimately familiar with, and had commuted on every day while I was going to school.

  I found the power to be only a step down from my Cobra, and the handling to be leaps and bounds beyond it. I wasn't paying attention to my speed, and at the "feel" of doing 5 under the speed limit, I looked down to be doing 10-20 over. The only fault I found with it was the comfort of the seats, and that was only because I was comparing them to the CTS seats in the rental we had 2 days prior. The only transmission offered at that time behind the 6 is the manumatic, and putting it in "sport" mode I was pleasantly surprised to have it shift right when I would've had it been in manual mode.

  Now seeing a brand new Outback a few days ago outside of REI, they've grown to the size of 1st-gen Foresters, and I HATE HATE HATE the Forester. I'm assuming that's the model you test drove?

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Nov. 4, 2009 3:22 p.m. Greg Voth Reader

  I have put roughly 50K combined miles on two different 2008 Ford Fusions. Both were 4cyl autos. The stock Continental tires are crap and the base model radio consol is cheasy fake carbon fiber but other than that I really like them. Roughly 30mpg (recorded) on the highway. I am averaging 24.7 mpg mixed driving according to the computer. I have had zero problems with either.

  My friends little brother at 17yrs old got a brand new 2008 6cyl AWD that has about 50k now and has had no problem thus far. The six has quite a bit more punch than the four and with the AWD it pulls from a stop hard. My buddies 80 yr old grandmother also just bought a 07 4cyl auto with about 20k miles on it for $10k and apparently she likes it for whatever that is worth.

  I recently had the chance to drive a rental 2010 4cyl auto and appreaciated the updated interior. The six speed auto and slightly more powerful motor made a big difference. It felt much more responsive off the line than my 08. I am looking forward company lease to end on my 08 so I can get into 2010 or 2011.

  Go test drive one. You will probably like it. Leaps and bounds above the 06 Malibu I had before it.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 3:51 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

  ReverendDexter wrote: Wow... my mother has an '04 or '05 Outback with the flat 6, and my experience in that car is the polar opposite of what you're describing.

  Well I did say it was a 4 cyl and that it was the new 2010 version. Also I never commented on the handling, just interior, ride, steering, NVH etc. I never had chance to try the handling as such

  Friends don't let friends drive Toyota's. Toyota - For when you want to show the world it's won and you've given up. Scion Tc...For when a minivan is just too sporty

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  Nov. 4, 2009 4:03 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

  Adrian_Thompson wrote:

  ReverendDexter wrote: Wow... my mother has an '04 or '05 Outback with the flat 6, and my experience in that car is the polar opposite of what you're describing.

  Well I did say it was a 4 cyl and that it was the new 2010 version. Also I never commented on the handling, just interior, ride, steering, NVH etc. I never had chance to try the handling as such

  Ah, okay, my apologies for jumping the gun on your post. I just think the Outback has an unjustified rap as a grammamobile, so I'm a little quick to defend it.

  I agree about the N/A 4-cylinder being anemic when put in that chassis.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Nov. 4, 2009 4:13 p.m. Adrian_Thompson Reader

  ReverendDexter wrote:

  Adrian_Thompson wrote:

  ReverendDexter wrote: Wow... my mother has an '04 or '05 Outback with the flat 6, and my experience in that car is the polar opposite of what you're describing.

  Well I did say it was a 4 cyl and that it was the new 2010 version. Also I never commented on the handling, just interior, ride, steering, NVH etc. I never had chance to try the handling as such

  Ah, okay, my apologies for jumping the gun on your post. I just think the Outback has an unjustified rap as a grammamobile, so I'm a little quick to defend it.

  I agree about the N/A 4-cylinder being anemic when put in that chassis.

  Oh and your talking Outbak and I'm talking Legacy. Now a sleeper outback with sti power train would be yummy, but not my idea of a DD

  Friends don't let friends drive Toyota's. Toyota - For when you want to show the world it's won and you've given up. Scion Tc...For when a minivan is just too sporty

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  Nov. 4, 2009 4:20 p.m. Aspen New Reader

  I like the look of the Fusion seems like a good deal. The new CVT in the Subaru seems to be getting panned by just about everyone. They all have mushy brakes except for the STi.

  You might want to consider a Saab 9-3 2.0T AWD. Good deals to be had and it is a nice package. Reliability is now above average.

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  Nov. 4, 2009 6:03 p.m. 02Pilot New Reader

  Thanks for all the feedback, guys. A few responses to specific points:

  • AWD is a necessity because Mom wants it. I drive a RWD car with dedicated snows through the winter here in NYS, but there's no way my parents are switching wheels twice a year (logic is a fleeting guest when it comes to my parents and automotive decision-making), so AWD it is.

  • Proximity of the dealership for service is important; that drove the initial search choices as much as anything else. They've been buying VWs from the local dealer for several decades. Subaru is close, so that could happen depending on what the car is like, but SAAB is a ways away, and my own experience with their cars might tend to put off people who prefer the as-close-to-maintenance-free characteristic in their cars. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and Cadillac are somewhere in the mid-distance, making them more remote possibilities but not out of the running.

  • Mom comes from a multi-generation Ford management family straight out of Livonia, so if any domestic has a chance, a Ford product is the realistic front-runner.

  Again, thanks very much for all the opinions offered thus far.

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