Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Smaller SUVs better in the Snow? 1 2

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  Jan. 30, 2012 9:51 a.m. SyntheticBlinkerFluid Dork

  So I've been doing my own little experiment lately. Now most of you may say "DUH!" on some of this, but I was curious and had to try it out to see how well this worked out.

  So I have a 1995 XJ Cherokee and my wife has 2003 Durango. Both do not have ABS, no limited slip, and have Part Time 4WD.

  Important Specs:

  Cherokee

  Curb Weight: ~2932 lbs

  Ground Clearance: 8.3 inches

  Wheel Base: 101.4 inches

  Height: 63.8 in.

  Length: 166.9 in.

  Tires: General Grabber AW Radials 225/75-15

  Brakes: Disc Front, Drum Rear

  Durango

  Curb weight: ~4379 lbs.

  Ground clearance: 8.5 in.

  Wheel base: 116 in.

  Height: 70.5 in.

  Length: 193.5 in.

  Tires: Pathfinder All-Terrains 255/70R16

  Brakes: 4-Wheel Disc

  Now, I have taken both out in deep snow and skating rink quality snow packed streets.Now realize that I'm talking about snow on the roads, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to go blasting through the snow off-road, I've been there and it's been negative experiences every time. These are my testing notes:

  Cherokee

  The tires I have on this truck are crap. They have the worst traction rating in everything past dry pavement. I can run 2WD on snow covered streets, but if it gets too slippery, I have to shift into 4WD. When I have it in 4WD, taking off from a stop is effortless. I think I could have bald tires and this thing would still trudge along without missing a beat. It takes off just fine.

  Braking: Braking isn't horrible. No ABS kind of blows, but when I let off the brakes, it grabs traction again, get back on the throttle and I can whip the back end of it around and go the direction you need to go. Even with the tires with the crappy traction rating, this still stops descent on the slippery streets.

  In deep snow (1-2 ft deep), this plows through it with no problem. At speed I can blast through 3 ft tall drifts with no problem. I would think that the ground clearance would be an issue, but it doesn't seem to be.

  Durango

  At this point I have 40,000 miles on the tires. They are worn, but still have some tread. But since these were new, I learned the hard way that All-Terrains are crap when it comes to traction on slippery surfaces. This isn't my first go-round, but I kind of had a mental lapse when I bought them. I don't take this truck off-road, so the A/Ts are kind of pointless. With no limited slip, I have to ALWAYS have the truck in 4WD when the weather sucks.

  Braking: This thing slides everywhere. There have been a couple times I have considered ejecting myself from the vehicle . With a truck this large and being over 4000lbs, this thing needs ABS. Why in 2003 Dodge did not make this a standard feature, I have no clue, but it was stupid on their part. Now I partially blame the lack of ABS, the weight, and tires. That combination is just bad.

  In deep snow, this truck can pull through it just fine thanks to the All-Terrains. When it comes to the drifts at speed, I have gotten this thing stuck a couple times. One of them was on my unplowed street last year. I think it comes back to weight; if this truck was 800-1000lbs lighter, it probably wouldn't have as much of a problem as it does.

  My conclusion:

  When AMC originally developed the Cherokee, they definitely tested it in the worst winter weather possible and developed it to work in it as well. I feel comfortable driving this truck in the inclement weather. Even as small as the Cherokee is, I feel safe in it. It gets around just fine in the snow. It's weight is under 3000lbs, it has just over a 100 inch wheelbase, and has a low center of gravity. These factors I believe, help it get around without many issues in the winter weather.

  When it comes to the Durango, it's no different from larger SUVs. Sure it can get going in the snow just fine, but when it comes to anything else important to driving in winter weather, I'd rather stay home and have some hot chocolate. I fear my life in this truck sometimes. This truck is all over the place, I can't even try to drive it like I drive the Jeep. It comes to light more and more why people shouldn't be driving these like tanks in the winter. I really don't want to drive it sometimes, but the wife prefers it over the Jeep.

  When it comes to being comfortable, the Durango definitely is better than the Jeep. But when it comes to driving without any major issues and feeling safe, the Jeep wins this competition.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 9:59 a.m. DeadSkunk Dork

  You can't drive a light vehicle in the snow !! Everybody knows that !! Just ask all my incredulous friends who will tell me that I'm nuts for driving a Miata all winter in Michigan.
  When it comes to stopping or turning I prefer the lighter vehicle, but if I want to make it through a foot of fresh snow the "tanks" are usually better.

  Warren Martin,'99 Miata,'03 CooperS,'91 GTI 16V, '96 Astro (deceased),01 Astro,06 Scion Xb

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:02 a.m. ebonyandivory New Reader

  I've owned three XJs and ALL of them were exceptionally awesome in the snow. My 2nd one got even better with a mini-spool from Randy's and 31" Super Swamper LTB's.

  Not sure if there's a "secret" about them but I have had very similar experiences with mine. (plus I did use mine on the rocks and amazed a lot of drivers of overbuilt CJ's and other "better" 4x4's

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:07 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

  4hi in my XJ almost feels like cheating. It's a little scary, to be quite honest... it would be very easy to forget that what you're driving on is quite bad...

  SCAVENGE THE SEA FLOOR FOR NUTRIENTS

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:12 a.m. N Sperlo SuperDork

  As I was saying before you deleted the original post and left my post in infinite limbo, heavier may accelerate better depending on the surface, while the lighter will almost always stop faster.

  - N. Sperlo -:-:- "Never take life seriously. No one ever gets out alive anyway." ~ ~ A strong tail wind can't hurt either...~~ K0HOF

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:17 a.m. SyntheticBlinkerFluid Dork

  N Sperlo wrote: As I was saying before you deleted the original post and left my post in infinite limbo, heavier may accelerate better depending on the surface, while the lighter will almost always stop faster.

  Yeah sorry about that, I accidentally hit "Add Post" before I was done typing.

  '95 Jeep Cherokee / '80 Mazda Rx-7 / '68 Corvair Monza Coupe

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:20 a.m. ebonyandivory New Reader

  N Sperlo wrote: As I was saying before you deleted the original post and left my post in infinite limbo, heavier may accelerate better depending on the surface, while the lighter will almost always stop faster.

  I agree. And it's that ability to stop moreso than accellerate that can prevent many accidents. Turning helps too. BTW, having a spool on the street (which was a huge no-no to just about everyone I talked to) was great in the snow, if you knew what you were doing, you could help steer with the gas pedal.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:20 a.m. iceracer SuperDork

  It's just a matter of physics. The heavier vehicle is harder to accelerate and stop than the lighter vehicle.Also doesn't want to turn as well. Particularly in low traction conditions.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 10:25 a.m. N Sperlo SuperDork

  iceracer wrote: It's just a matter of physics. The heavier vehicle is harder to accelerate and stop than the lighter vehicle.Also doesn't want to turn as well. Particularly in low traction conditions.

  Yes and no. I'm sure we can all think of circumstances where the heavier may accelerate better. Its not like you're always on ice... Mr Iceracer.

  - N. Sperlo -:-:- "Never take life seriously. No one ever gets out alive anyway." ~ ~ A strong tail wind can't hurt either...~~ K0HOF

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:10 a.m. mad_machine SuperDork

  true.. heavier can "dig in" better and maybe find pavement under the snow.. but after that.. it is simple physics at work

  Be careful of your words, for someone will agree with them. Be careful of your conduct, for someone will imitate it. -Leih Tsu

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:15 a.m. N Sperlo SuperDork

  Conclusion:
  A lighter vehicle with all the wheels at work is better unless you need a heavier one.

  - N. Sperlo -:-:- "Never take life seriously. No one ever gets out alive anyway." ~ ~ A strong tail wind can't hurt either...~~ K0HOF

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:21 a.m. oldtin SuperDork

  Get some pizza cutter snows/ATs and they'll both do a bit better in the snow. The jeep would definitely be the default nasty weather, offroad choice. FWIW, I'd much rather live without ABS in snow.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:25 a.m. patgizz SuperDork

  my S series blazer does nothing but amaze me on nasty roads.

  When I grow up, I want to be just like Colt McCoy

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:30 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  Lighter is always better in my experience. Low torque is better than high torque. Balance is better than all the weight at one end. Tires are more important than anything else. A total piece of E36 M3 can climb an iceberg wearing Nokian Hakkablahblahblahs and an H1 Hummer is going in the ditch on Fuzion "dubs".
  

  I once did a track day on packed snow in an E36 M3 on those Nokians. (the folks running Monticello MC are insane in a good way). People in Porsche SUVs were stunned that all that rip snorting Turbo AWD goodness could be owned by a 2wd performance car... it is because they were Bob Costas, but those tires rock nonetheless

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:33 a.m. Klayfish HalfDork

  I had an '01 Cherokee for a company car. It was a 2WD only model. But even with RWD only, I actually had very little trouble in the snow, with all season tires. It did great. They finally let me get snow tires, and it was awesome.

  Replaced that with an '04 Liberty with snow tires and 4WD. That thing was a mountain goat, I drove through a foot of snow with no troubles.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:43 a.m. N Sperlo SuperDork

  I would be happy with a small 4x4, but when we had a foot of snow and I had to drive myself to urgent care, my F150 was happy to bound over the three foot snow plow mounds. Just sayin.

  - N. Sperlo -:-:- "Never take life seriously. No one ever gets out alive anyway." ~ ~ A strong tail wind can't hurt either...~~ K0HOF

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:45 a.m. Keith SuperDork

  Our 2000 GC is a monster in the snow. It will find traction no matter what. It's a total buzz-kill in snowy parking lots as it refuses to let me have any fun. It has Kumho snows on it too.

  Of course, it won't tell you what's going on at the contact patch and you're still trying to brake and turn a big heavy vehicle, but if you need to accelerate it's the king.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  Jan. 30, 2012 11:56 a.m. 92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork

  Keith wrote: Our 2000 GC is a monster in the snow. It will find traction no matter what. It's a total buzz-kill in snowy parking lots as it refuses to let me have any fun. It has Kumho snows on it too. Of course, it won't tell you what's going on at the contact patch and you're still trying to brake and turn a big heavy vehicle, but if you need to accelerate it's the king.

  Keith, you have a V8 or the 4.0?

  I had a fun situation where i finally "understood" mine about a month after i bought it. We were going to her dad's for the weekend, and he lives about 10 miles down a dirt road. There's a HUGE hill coming up to his house, and we had just gotten a bunch of snow and ice, plow hadn't been through.

  I made it halfway up in 2wd, then started sliding backwards. Hit the brakes, still sliding. Stopped about a quarter way up. Put it in 4lo and mashed the gas.

  It. Was. AWESOME.
  

  4 big rooster tails and i felt like i had completely conquered physics.

  SCAVENGE THE SEA FLOOR FOR NUTRIENTS

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  Jan. 30, 2012 12:12 p.m. Knurled Dork

  The lightest vehicles possible are the best snow drivers.

  I have an AWD car right now, and between its snow tires and lockable diffs, it's "okay", although it's a little sketchy over 75 on slushy deep stuff and the handling isn't confidence inspiring.

  The ~800lbs lighter Golf that I had before it, however, was completely unflappable, and passing cars in the bumpy rutty unplowed left lane was a non-issue. As was high speed slides around interchanges

  I laugh at trucks... they may be able to not get stuck but they don't handle very well.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 12:17 p.m. Keith SuperDork

  Celica, we have the V8.

  My Golf (on Hakkkaaappppeeellllliittttaas) was great at handbrake turns in the snow. Like a lot of new cars, the brakes were too heavily boosted for left foot braking, but the old 1991 Passat wagon had a perfect brake setup for it. My parents have owned a series of Subaru wagons and on Hakks, they are great in real weather. The most confidence-inspiring cars I've driven in bad conditions.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  Jan. 30, 2012 12:22 p.m. novaderrik Dork

  i never had a chance to drive it on the road (legally), but the 88 S10 4X4 that i swapped a TBI 350 into was unstoppable in the 4 foot snow drifts in my back yard- i had to use it to pull my 81 F250 4X4 out of the same drifts a couple of times.. i think that little truck was just the right combination of light but nose heavy with enough torque down low to apply smooth, even power to the wheels.

  but my current truck- 79 Chevy heavy duty 3/4 ton 4X4 chassis with 87 GMC body on it- is also really easy to drive on the snow and ice- which i think is because of it's 5300 pound empty curb weight, 4.10 gears, new tires, granny gear 4 speed, and the lack of power from the 307 that's in it..

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  Jan. 30, 2012 4:10 p.m. Bobzilla SuperDork

  Best winter vehicle I've ever had was our 01 'Zuk Grand Vitara. Thevery few times we ever used 4wd in the winter seemed like it wasn't fair to winter. What was more fun was thesuper short wheelbase in 4wd in an empty parking lot. It had a super tight turning radius and would literally spin on its axis like a top. I loved it. Was sad to see it go.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 4:57 p.m. fast_eddie_72 SuperDork

  I live in Denver. We get some snow here. I drive my '91 MR2 year round. My wife has a '98 4Runner. Both run winter tires from about mid-Dec. through March.

  Before winter tires the 4Runner simply would not stop on slick roads. It has ABS- the ABS would come on and you'd ABS all the way through the intersection. The MR2 was the much better vehicle in snow. Now with Blizzaks on the 4Runner it does pretty awesome. But you can't get around physics. It's hard to stop a heavy car when there's not much grip available.

  The MR2, by the way, is awesome in snow. With the engine over the drive wheels it gets going pretty well even with an open diff. Turning and stopping with winter tires are great. Biggest problem I have is looking behind me when I brake to make sure somone doesn't rear end me. If we get more than about 8" I have to wait for it to get packed down a bit though or I get high centered.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 5:03 p.m. Grizz Dork

  In reply to DeadSkunk:

  You ever consider they're just concerned for your safety?

  I wouldn't want to drive a miata when everyone else is in 8 billion pound vehicles that can't stop or turn. Sounds like a good way to get mushed honestly.

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  Jan. 30, 2012 5:07 p.m. mad_machine SuperDork

  the best snow car I ever had was a first generation Hyundai Excel. 5 speed with the 65hp 1.5. It came on tiny 175/60/13s.. and was near unstoppable in snow

  Be careful of your words, for someone will agree with them. Be careful of your conduct, for someone will imitate it. -Leih Tsu

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