Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Miata HPDE Newbie -- Help? 1 2

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  April 21, 2011 12:11 a.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Hey everyone,

  Joined GRM about a month ago asking for advice on getting miatas... Ended up getting one from a gentleman here about two weeks ago and have been trying to learn as much about them as I can during my spare time. I'd like to sign up for the HPDE 1 event at the Glen in early May, and have a few questions that I haven't been able to find answers for. Would appreciate any help.

  1) What exactly are the Miata safety specs for the NASA NE events? I have a rollbar, one racing seat, and a stock passenger seat, both using factory seat belts. Do I need two racing seats? Racing harnesses? Arm restraints? Seems that every organization/local chapter has different requirements and the NASA NE tech director hasn't responded to my email... Can someone direct me toward a site that has this laid out?

  2) Do I need to do an annual / shop inspection before I go to an event or can I get teched in at the track?
  

  3) The car has AGX adjustables + FM springs. Recommended shock settings for a newbie so I don't kill myself or endanger others? Rather understeer than go tail happy, no?

  4) Helmets... What's the best way to get a cheap one? Seems that it will eventually go to SA2010 and those aren't exactly cheap. There's also not a lot of local shops where I can get them (I'm in Boston), but I need to try them on before buying, don't I?

  5) Why did it take me so long to get involved in the sport?!?!

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  April 21, 2011 6:40 a.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

  heres a place with a $150 SA2010 helmet http://www.soloperformance.com/Pyrotect-Open-Face-SA2010-Helmet_p_1158.html

  As far as cheap helmets, its your head and the price YOU place on it. (may think about spending more)

  according to http://www.nasanortheast.com/images/documents/PDA-NASA_TECH_SHEET.pdf if you want to carry a passenger, the seats need to be the same. go stock drivers or get an aftermarket passengers. It also reads like the stock belts are fine. If you do get belts they have to match pass-driver.

  formerly known as hotstang

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  April 21, 2011 9:37 a.m. BoxheadTim SuperDork

  bcp2011 wrote: 1) What *exactly* are the Miata safety specs for the NASA NE events? I have a rollbar, one racing seat, and a stock passenger seat, both using factory seat belts. Do I need two racing seats? Racing harnesses? Arm restraints? Seems that every organization/local chapter has different requirements and the NASA NE tech director hasn't responded to my email... Can someone direct me toward a site that has this laid out?

  Doesn't NASA have these somewhere on their website? I know SCCA does, but the specs are probably slightly different. Racing seats with stock belts don't necessary work that well unless you're talking Elise seats. Plus, you might sight higher than with the stock seat - there are only a few race seats that put you down lower than the stock seat, especially if they're not bolted directly to the floor.

  Do you pass the broomstick handle test with the roll bar? I would guess you'll need at least 3" without a helmet.

  Sanity is vastly overrated.

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  April 21, 2011 9:52 a.m. Dashpot New Reader

  Being in Boston and planning for the Glen as your 1st event, I would suggest you try to get your car "pre-tech" inspected before driving all the way out there for nothing. Get ahold of your NASA contact and see if they a qualified tech inspector in the area. I bet Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports in Danvers is universally qualified.

  I would recommend you back off a step and attend NHMS for your 1st event. It's a slower, more technical track and only 1.5 hr drive vs. 5.5 hrs. No hotel necessary either. There are a couple of groups I would recommend to run with, shoot me a PM for details (I run DE/TT's in a Miata too).

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  April 21, 2011 10:53 a.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Apexcarver wrote: heres a place with a $150 SA2010 helmet http://www.soloperformance.com/Pyrotect-Open-Face-SA2010-Helmet_p_1158.html As far as cheap helmets, its your head and the price YOU place on it. (may think about spending more) according to http://www.nasanortheast.com/images/documents/PDA-NASA_TECH_SHEET.pdf if you want to carry a passenger, the seats need to be the same. go stock drivers or get an aftermarket passengers. It also reads like the stock belts are fine. If you do get belts they have to match pass-driver.

  On the helmet, I was thinking that I'd like to try them on before putting money down, and all the shops I could find around here have helmets in the 500+ range, which seems pretty expensive vs the ones I could find online that are good quality...

  On the Tech Sheet -- I saw that and I guess it wasn't clear to me (still doesn't seem very explicit) that the seats much match. The restraint system, which I take it to be the seat belts, are matching so I guess the cheaper option would be to go find some cheap stock seats...

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  April 21, 2011 10:55 a.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  BoxheadTim wrote:

  bcp2011 wrote: 1) What *exactly* are the Miata safety specs for the NASA NE events? I have a rollbar, one racing seat, and a stock passenger seat, both using factory seat belts. Do I need two racing seats? Racing harnesses? Arm restraints? Seems that every organization/local chapter has different requirements and the NASA NE tech director hasn't responded to my email... Can someone direct me toward a site that has this laid out?

  Doesn't NASA have these somewhere on their website? I know SCCA does, but the specs are probably slightly different. Racing seats with stock belts don't necessary work that well unless you're talking Elise seats. Plus, you might sight higher than with the stock seat - there are only a few race seats that put you down lower than the stock seat, especially if they're not bolted directly to the floor.

  Do you pass the broomstick handle test with the roll bar? I would guess you'll need at least 3" without a helmet.

  I saw the tech sheet, but wasn't sure whether matching seats were a requirement. In the BMWCCA rule book they were explicit about having matching seats, harnesses, and arm restraints for convertibles.

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  April 21, 2011 2:51 p.m. Keith SuperDork

  About the shocks - set them around 4 front and rear. Use sway bars to adjust oversteer/understeer.

  If you want an inexpensive helmet, get a blowout SA2005. It's not going to be valid as long, but they should be fairly affordable and just as safe as they were last year For fitment, you could try a few motorcycle helmets from the same manufacturer and use that as a good guide. Most of the online sellers will work with you on fitment as well.

  Square left in 50 caution ocean!

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  April 21, 2011 4:50 p.m. White_and_Nerdy Reader

  I'll second the HMS Motorsport recommendation. Take it to Joe, or even call him. Though not a Miata specialist, he knows Miatas and what's involved in HPDE prep. He checked out my first Miata for BMW CCA events and sold me some appropriate harnesses for it. They also sell helmets - I got my SA1995 there (tells you how long ago that was - and no, I don't use it anymore).
  

  Another suggestion would be Lester Seal of Apex Automotive Engineering. He is a Miata specialist and has been doing track stuff for years. In fact, regardless of track stuff, if you're in the Boston area and you have a Miata, you should know Lester.

  - Justin

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  April 21, 2011 5:18 p.m. ransom Reader

  Don't know what the rules say about roll bars, but is yours a proper roll bar and not just for show? Seems to me that both are out there, and it seems worth checking if it's just what came with the car.

  I'd hope that a previous owner who did the mods you list would install a proper roll bar, but better safe than sorry (even if sorry is just not passing tech).

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  April 21, 2011 5:56 p.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Keith wrote: About the shocks - set them around 4 front and rear. Use sway bars to adjust oversteer/understeer. If you want an inexpensive helmet, get a blowout SA2005. It's not going to be valid as long, but they should be fairly affordable and just as safe as they were last year For fitment, you could try a few motorcycle helmets from the same manufacturer and use that as a good guide. Most of the online sellers will work with you on fitment as well.

  Hmm... I'll have to check if my sway bars are adjustable. Thanks for the idea on trying the motorcycle helmets!

  White_and_Nerdy said: Another suggestion would be Lester Seal of Apex Automotive Engineering. He is a Miata specialist and has been doing track stuff for years. In fact, regardless of track stuff, if you're in the Boston area and you have a Miata, you should know Lester.

  Thanks for the suggestion! Just wish there were someone closer! Is there a way to get an annual tech or do I have to do this every event? Also, how much should I expect to pay at a shop vs at the track to get tech'ed?
  

  ransom said: Don't know what the rules say about roll bars, but is yours a proper roll bar and not just for show? Seems to me that both are out there, and it seems worth checking if it's just what came with the car. I'd hope that a previous owner who did the mods you list would install a proper roll bar, but better safe than sorry (even if sorry is just not passing tech).

  It's a real Hard Dog bar. The PO used to run the car in NASA Mid Atlantic (and apparently quite successfully in his class).

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  April 21, 2011 6:58 p.m. Woody SuperDork

  Another thumbs up for HMS. They have a pretty big inventory of safety equipment and you may be able to try a few different helmets on. They're also a great place to shop for seats, as they have quite a few on display.

  You may not want an open face helmet. Even in a Miata with a hardtop, I still get pelted with pebbles through the open windows.

  If you're going to downgrade to stock seats, you should at least do a seat-back foamectomy, which you can do in about 5 minutes per seat with some pliers and a bag of cable ties. It's an easily reversible modification that makes a big difference.

  I'm not sure I'd want to be either at the Glen or NHMS without a race seat, harness and cage.

  I lift things up and put them down.

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  April 21, 2011 7:33 p.m. wbjones SuperDork

  Apexcarver wrote: according to http://www.nasanortheast.com/images/documents/PDA-NASA_TECH_SHEET.pdf if you want to carry a passenger, the seats need to be the same. go stock drivers or get an aftermarket passengers. It also reads like the stock belts are fine. If you do get belts they have to match pass-driver.

  interesting about the seat requirement... I run with NASA-SE and have a stock passenger seat and a Kirky drivers seat... 6 pt harness both... never had any problem with carrying passengers... guess each region can set their own regulations

  I've got a race seat for the passenger side... wish I wasn't so lazy

  understeer: when you hit the wall with the front end,,, oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back end.... horsepower: how hard you hit that wall.... torque: how far you drag that wall

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  April 21, 2011 7:58 p.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Woody wrote: Another thumbs up for HMS. They have a pretty big inventory of safety equipment and you may be able to try a few different helmets on. They're also a great place to shop for seats, as they have quite a few on display. You may not want an open face helmet. Even in a Miata with a hardtop, I still get pelted with pebbles through the open windows. If you're going to downgrade to stock seats, you should at least do a seat-back foamectomy, which you can do in about 5 minutes per seat with some pliers and a bag of cable ties. It's an easily reversible modification that makes a big difference. I'm not sure I'd want to be either at the Glen or NHMS without a race seat, harness and cage.

  The plan is to get a closed face helmet for now. Will prob make a trip to HMS to try stuff out. Thanks for the tip.

  On the foamectomy -- is it really needed for someone who's 5'8? It seems like it adds support so is that the main benefit or the height clearance?

  Is there any track that you'd want to be without the things you've mentioned?

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  April 21, 2011 8:33 p.m. Woody SuperDork

  bcp2011 wrote: On the foamectomy -- is it really needed for someone who's 5'8? It seems like it adds support so is that the main benefit or the height clearance? Is there any track that you'd want to be without the things you've mentioned?

  Seat back foamectomy gives you a surprising amount of lateral support from stock seats.

  and...No. But especially not NHMS.

  I lift things up and put them down.

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  April 21, 2011 8:36 p.m. chaparral Reader

  For helmets, go to Roger Hargens at Prospeed Kartsports in North Attleboro, 508-399-5377.

  I'd recommend setting it up to be pretty neutral - you don't want it plowing because you will reach into the autocross bag of tricks to get it to rotate and that's less predictable than a decent setup.

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  April 21, 2011 9:22 p.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Woody wrote: Seat back foamectomy gives you a surprising amount of lateral support from stock seats. and...No. But especially not NHMS.

  Now you've gotten me a little paranoid... Am I putting my life in jepardy by going there or the Glen? What are the characteristics of those tracks that makes you think I'm going on a suicide mission?

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  April 21, 2011 9:25 p.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  chaparral wrote: For helmets, go to Roger Hargens at Prospeed Kartsports in North Attleboro, 508-399-5377. I'd recommend setting it up to be pretty neutral - you don't want it plowing because you will reach into the autocross bag of tricks to get it to rotate and that's less predictable than a decent setup.

  Thanks for the contact.

  Can you be a bit more specific about the neutral setup (i.e. does that mean setting front and backs at 4)? Sorry for the newbie questions!

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  April 21, 2011 10:02 p.m. Woody SuperDork

  bcp2011 wrote: Now you've gotten me a little paranoid... Am I putting my life in jepardy by going there? What are the characteristics of those tracks that makes you think I'm going on a suicide mission?

  180 degree turns, walls and big heavy cars sharing the track with your lightweight Miata.

  I lift things up and put them down.

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  April 21, 2011 10:21 p.m. bcp2011 New Reader

  Woody wrote:

  bcp2011 wrote: Now you've gotten me a little paranoid... Am I putting my life in jepardy by going there? What are the characteristics of those tracks that makes you think I'm going on a suicide mission?

  180 degree turns, walls and big heavy cars sharing the track with your lightweight Miata.

  But I thought the Miata is faster than those big heavy cars.

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  April 22, 2011 3:36 a.m. ZOO SuperDork

  Not to thread jack -- but if you decide that Watkins Glen is too much for your first time, you are welcome to attend our track day at Shannonville Motorsports Park on May 30th (near Belleville, ON). Probably a much easier track to learn on. Let me know if you wish to know more details -- there will be at least 15 Miatas at the event.

  1990 Miata, 1998 M3, 2007 EliseLocost in progress

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  April 22, 2011 8:26 a.m. Woody SuperDork

  bcp2011 wrote: But I thought the Miata is faster than those big heavy cars.

  It is, until you get to the big, dumb straight...

  I lift things up and put them down.

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  April 22, 2011 8:35 a.m. Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork

  The Glen is much safer and more open that it used to be - not that you can't get into a lot of trouble but... when I did my first lap there in the late 90s it was positively intimidating.

  They paved all of turn one's run off, as well as outside the bus stop and up thru turn 9. They put soft walls in at the entrance to the front straight... you still can't race motorcycles there but it's miles better than before when the front straight ended in a pile of steel with a huge dirt ramp behind to launch you into space.

  OP: Provided your car is safe and comfortable for you to drive - you will be fine. Don't test setups for an event you have no experience with. Just bring it - after you get a few under your belt you will be able to decide for yourself. Sign up, pay attention to your instructor, enjoy yourself and stay within your own limits.
  

  Also - do not buy an open faced helmet for track events. They are no longer allowed at NJMP at all or in BMWCCA Club Racing (possibly the DE program too... at least in NJ) and the trend seems to be headed that way. I'd hate to see you drop half the money of a decent closed faced helmet only to find it useless for what you want.

  Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering

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  April 22, 2011 8:39 a.m. tuna55 SuperDork

  As much as I hate to agree with the open face thing, it seems to be quickly falling out of favor. I hate closed face helmets.

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  April 22, 2011 6:35 p.m. LopRacer New Reader

  I sorry to hear that the NE Tech chief is not answering your questions. If you were coming to a NASA-SE event I could answer all your questions. As a general rule you want to have matching equipment for you and your passenger (instructor). You want your instructor to be comfortable and feel safe in your car. I still have a factory seat for my passenger and a race seat on the drivers side, but it was always instructors decision if they felt safe with my set up and were willing to ride with me. I now have only harnesses on both sides, but at one point had both harness and factory belt for the passenger so they could choose.

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  April 28, 2011 8:08 p.m. paulmpetrun Reader

  bcp2011 wrote: 1) What *exactly* are the Miata safety specs for the NASA NE events? I have a rollbar, one racing seat, and a stock passenger seat, both using factory seat belts. Do I need two racing seats? Racing harnesses? Arm restraints? Seems that every organization/local chapter has different requirements and the NASA NE tech director hasn't responded to my email... Can someone direct me toward a site that has this laid out? 2) Do I need to do an annual / shop inspection before I go to an event or can I get teched in at the track? 3) The car has AGX adjustables + FM springs. Recommended shock settings for a newbie so I don't kill myself or endanger others? Rather understeer than go tail happy, no? 5) Why did it take me so long to get involved in the sport?!?!

  Hey BCP, the car is already setup to be neutral unless you made any major changes! If you leave the shocks set at 4 all around you will be perfectly fine. The anti-roll bars are FM and are adjustable. The front is set in the middle setting and the rear is in the softest setting. Leave them alone for now, the car won't bite you even if you make a mistake. Also the car will pass NASA safety tech as is, with no changes needed. Just for your info, the roll bar in the car is a HARD DOG hardcore hardtop single diagonal, and is legal for all sanctioning organizations. The car has a 2010 NASA annuall inspection sticker on the windshield, unless you removed it. Since nothing has changed 2011 shouldn't be a problem. If you can get it teched before you go to the track, that would take some hurry/fuss out of the weekend. Don't worry about changing anything, anywhere on the car. Just go drive, learn and have fun. Make sure you check the oil level for piece of mind and set the tire pressures around 32psi for all. Thats a nice safe beginning pressure. For everyone reading this and wondering about my specific info, the car used to be mine(and damn I miss it!!!). Don't worry about what track you go to, at first they are all overwhelming. Buy a good helmet and just get on track. Listen to your instructor, and you will be fine. Get the first weekend under you belt and you see there is not nearly as much to worry about. Good luck and if you have any questions regarding the car or even while your at your first event PLEASE feel free to call me. I have been a NASA/BMW CCA/PCA instructor since 2001. If you don't have my number here it is 412-974-5695. Good luck Paul

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