Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Learn me Tow Vehicle - Budget $4k max 1 2 3

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  Sept. 20, 2010 8:38 p.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  I hate the "Learn Me" terms but it seems to fit right now...

  Starting to research tow vehicles. This will be for a Spec Miata and the smallest enclosed trailer that will fit. I'm not a pack rat and don't have a lot of spares so won't be taking much beyond the essentials.

  Location is northern CA so I'll mainly be hitting Thunderhill, Infineon, Laguna, Buttonwillow, Willow Springs.
  

  It will only be used for towing. No daily driving or anything like that. Well, I might pack it up with family if/when they visit once a year but for the most part it will realistically just sit around waiting to tow.
  

  I've thought about a Suburban 2500, Expedition, Excursion, F250, E250.

  It must have ABS brakes, A/C and automatic trans.

  Many of the trucks and vans seem to be well used work trucks and at a similar price as the oversized soccer mom SUVs.

  I've never owned or wrenched on a truck or SUV before so I'm utterly clueless. School is in.

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  Sept. 20, 2010 8:46 p.m. Toyman01 SuperDork

  I tow a 20' enclosed with an E150. Would rather have a E250 or 350. Vans will probably be cheaper than the others you listed because the lack of yuppie tax.

  A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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  Sept. 20, 2010 9:37 p.m. BoxheadTim Dork

  How much of a factor is the fuel consumption? It seems that out here over the hills, the trucks with the stupid size engines (ie, Ford 460 or Chevy 454) are noticeably cheaper or have fewer miles on than the equivalent trucks with smaller engines.

  Sanity is vastly overrated.

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  Sept. 20, 2010 10:41 p.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  Fuel consumption isn't much of a factor given the driving schedule. Reliability, safety, ease of driving are of higher importance.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 5:52 a.m. DrBoost Dork

  I always recommend a Dodge with the Cummins because it'll tow a miata and small trailer like it's a bag of groceries, it'll go 1,000,000 miles with regular maintenance and once the transmission has been rebuilt with quality components you are good to go for decades.

  You know you are deep in boost territory when you get tire pressures and boost pressures confused

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  Sept. 21, 2010 7:49 a.m. JThw8 SuperDork

  Since suburbans are on your list I'll chime in and say they are a great choice. Ive had 3 suburbans and a tahoe as tow vehicles, all towing things much larger than a miata. Comfy, room for the family and supplies, cheap parts, easy to work on. If I hadn't gotten a screaming good deal on my current quad cab 1 ton dually I'd still be rocking a suburban.

  OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part." BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  Sept. 21, 2010 8:25 a.m. Streetwiseguy HalfDork

  How patient and mechanically sympathetic are you? If you are 20, and tow at 90mph, you need a diesel with a big trans cooler. If, however, like me you are 50 and don't really care how long it takes to get somewhere, my 4.8 5 speed Silverado is adequate. Up hills and into the wind, I go slower.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 8:25 a.m. Ranger50 Reader

  I'll second the E250. Mobile hotel room if you can get a conversion van. Just stay FAR away from the modular powered versions. Much better to get a 5.8L version, IMO.

  Brian

  "Never trust an intelligent man with no money to play fair."

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  Sept. 21, 2010 8:54 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  Some general things.

  Heavier vehicles are less affected by what the trailer's doing.

  Longer wheelbase tows better. Shorter wheelbase is MUCH easier to maneuver a trailer with while backing up.

  You'll be happier with a vehicle rated for considerably more than you're towing than one that's rated for right at what you're towing. For one, it'll tow better up hills, and for two, eventually you WILL get conned into towing more than you're currently planning for. It's always better to be comfortable knowing that your vehicle is capable rather than having to stay on top of it because you know you're right at the limit.

  Cross your safety chains.

  +1 for automatics. If you can afford something new enough to have tow/haul mode, I recommend it. Any money you can invest into keeping that tranny cool is worth it. External coolers, temp gauges, and deep pans are your friend.

  Remember that in California, max speed limit while towing is always 55. Not that I care if you do 90+, but Johnny Law is in revenue collection mode 24/7 these days.

  I've towed with my 5.0 Bronco, and honestly, I'd want more power and stiffer rear springs. $4k's not gonna get you into decent diesel territory, but with people still in mpg mode, you should be able to pick up a V10, 454, or 460 truck fairly cheaply.

  I'm not a Chevy guy, but if you could find a 3/4-ton Suburban with the 454, I think that'd be the hot ticket.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 21, 2010 10:08 a.m. twolittlebroncos New Reader

  Chevy Express van? Seems like these can be had in that price range and will have the Gen 4 v8's. If you need more motivation check out the guy on youtube beating Evo's with his turbo'd Express van.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 10:11 a.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  Thanks for the input. Some answers to questions and curiosities. :)

  I'm 40 and relatively patient. I want to get up that mountain though w/o worrying if it will make it. Been there, done that in Colorado in a moving truck towing my RX7 on an open trailer. Another time, I watched a family member almost jack knife on another moving truck that was a POS with all my possessions and my car on an open trailer. Safe towing is important to me.

  Long wheel base is good - check. Big engines are good - check. Overkill is good - check. Don't need diesel. Can get a better deal on a big engined gasser - check.

  I spent some time last night on craigslist in sfbay and sacramento. There are a good selection of Suburbans, Expeditions in my price range w/ mileage ranging from 80k to 150k. There are some V10 Excursions but they are more $$.

  Many of the vans and trucks are already at 200k miles which scares me off. Too many worn parts at that mileage. The people I know that have work trucks pretty much drive them till they break and replace what is necessary only. There is usually a reason they are selling and its usually b/c the rig can no longer get them to work on time.

  Are any of my thoughts above wrong? What kind of maintenance work should I expect on these vehicles after purchasing?

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  Sept. 21, 2010 10:19 a.m. twolittlebroncos New Reader

  Follow up on the Express van recommendation. It looks like they didn't get the LS series motors until 2003. Still going to be cheaper than an equivalent Tahoe/Suburban, but the LS motors will likely be out of your price range unless you want a panel van.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 10:42 a.m. Mikey52_1 Reader

  My big Chevy van, an '01 Express with the vortec L31 (last gen smallblock Chevy) engine is the best tow rig I've ever had. It's a long wheelbase 3500, and has towed up to 7k pounds, without a whimper. Mileage depends more on speed than load, and at 70 mph, I'm right on top of the torque curve. Rolling hills mean very little to it. No big drama, no 15 mph up a 6% grade, just get on down the road and give me 10.5 mpg doing it. Honestly, I'd rather drive this big van, than the F250 Supercab 4x2 that was setup specifically to tow. Better mileage, and better load control. Wheelbases between the two are the same, and the van is just...better.

  Plus, I've seen vans identical to mine with 35-50K mile going for USD $3800 locally. They've been the 'shuttle vans' that hotels use to get customers from the airport to downtown.
  

  Definitely worth a look.

  Mike

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  Sept. 21, 2010 11:04 a.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

  I love my Cummins Dodge to pieces, but I paid about 5K for it used with 230K on the clock and a pretty banged up body. But, it is 4 wheel drive and has cold AC. Its also a standard trans, which I personally prefer but I realize many other don't.
  

  I had a '77 Suburban in college, with a 350/350, and that thing would tow like mad. I did kill the automatic once, but a rebuilt tranny (with a big arse cooler) put it right, and the rebuilds aren't expensive on those primitive slushboxes. A 6.2 diesel suburban would be about the bees knees for a tow/ support rig. I do love the vans, too- and used vans tend to be dirt cheap. A former co-worker picked up a 3/4 ton conversion van, with a 350 chevy, auto, and even a wheelchair lift for your budget. Without the wheelchair lift, you're down at least into the 3K range.
  

  One plus for the Suburban over the van is the availability of 4wd. Before my Dodge, I'd never owned a 4x4 (my suburban was 2wd) but since I mostly tow with my Dodge, I've been in some situations where I would have been FUBAR without the front two wheels helping out. If you could find a 4x4 van, with a diesel, and 3/4 ton, that would be the absolute best of all worlds. Heck, even with a gas-burner, it would be 90% of the way there (assuming single-digit fuel economy while towing doesn't scare you)

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  Sept. 21, 2010 11:15 a.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

  BTW, just to give you some real world numbers...

  My Suburban used to average about 12mpg with its big gas engine, between towing and not. My diesel truck (which actually weighs more) averages about 18 mpg between towing and not (I've seen as high as 21 mpg on the highway, not towing, which to me is phenomenol). If regular costs $3 and diesel is $3.50 (around here both are about 50 cents cheaper, but I'm sure Cali is up there) then your diesel is going to save you about $1100 over 20,000 miles of operation.
  

  My opinion is that the diesel is just better for towing. From my experience, the thing always starts, runs, drives, and feels the same. There's never any drama with it, it never runs hot, or does anything weird. It just goes and goes and goes. I drove it cross country, 2700 miles, and only shut it down twice (I usually just let it idle when fueling). And then came back. Towing and hauling two tons of gear. Yes, the fuel is more expensive, and oil changes will cost you a Franklin unless you do them yourself (think gallons of oil, not quarts!) but the piece of mind is definitely there. I personally would only consider a diesel for a tower. But your mileage can and will vary.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 11:24 a.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  Mikey52_1 wrote: My big Chevy van, an '01 Express with the vortec L31 (last gen smallblock Chevy) engine is the best tow rig I've ever had. It's a long wheelbase 3500, and has towed up to 7k pounds, without a whimper. Mileage depends more on speed than load, and at 70 mph, I'm right on top of the torque curve. Rolling hills mean very little to it. No big drama, no 15 mph up a 6% grade, just get on down the road and give me 10.5 mpg doing it. Honestly, I'd rather drive this big van, than the F250 Supercab 4x2 that was setup specifically to tow. Better mileage, and better load control. Wheelbases between the two are the same, and the van is just...better. Plus, I've seen vans identical to mine with 35-50K mile going for USD $3800 locally. They've been the 'shuttle vans' that hotels use to get customers from the airport to downtown. Definitely worth a look.

  Thanks for the tip. I just checked craigslist for Chevy Express vans. Most are pretty expensive and over $5k in this area. Others were V6. There were 2 that were in my budget with V8 motors. I'll keep an eye out for them.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 11:25 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  I'd take a big gas motor over a non-turbo diesel, but maybe that's just me.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Sept. 21, 2010 11:29 a.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  As I see it, The problem with Diesel powered options is the higher buy in price and they all have very high mileage - 200k +. I would have to pay a premium to buy an older Diesel vehicle with higher mileage than an equivalent gas powered vehicle that is newer and has lower mileage.

  The high mileage turns me off b/c lots of the smaller parts are original - suspension, bushings, bearings, rear ends, transmissions etc and could cause a potential maintenance $$ spiral.
  

  Is my thinking off in this regard?

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:07 p.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

  amg_rx7 wrote: As I see it, The problem with Diesel powered options is the higher buy in price and they all have very high mileage - 200k +. I would have to pay a premium to buy an older Diesel vehicle with higher mileage than an equivalent gas powered vehicle that is newer and has lower mileage. The high mileage turns me off b/c lots of the smaller parts are original - suspension, bushings, bearings, rear ends, transmissions etc and could cause a potential maintenance $$ spiral. Is my thinking off in this regard?

  You raise a valid concern. All I can give is my own anecdotal experience, with my Cummins truck which now has over 255,000 miles on it, and all I've done to it is replace an alternator, and change the fluids. The biggest question mark to me would be the transmission, since you're going automatic, and they are expensive to replace on anything modern, and can be prone to failure with abuse, or simply if a poor design. That said, a diesel-engined modern vehicle would have a diesel-engineered transmission behind it, that should handle the load.
  

  I guess the biggest question to decide between diesel and gas would be distances. Its not uncommon for me to hitch up and tow for 500 to 1000 miles. And I put 20,000 miles on my truck in 3 years. So I'm glad I got the diesel. If you were planning on towing 200 or 300 miles at a throw, 5 times a year, the gas would be more attractive.
  

  One other benefit to diesels, though, is that they are easy to sell, and hold their value well. So if you buy a diesel, and decide you don't like it, it'd be easier to unload later. There's a reason all those gas hogs are cheap- they have a very defined market.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:09 p.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

  ReverendDexter wrote: I'd take a big gas motor over a non-turbo diesel, but maybe that's just me.

  Just about all diesels now are TD. I wouldn't tow with a non-turbo diesel, either! My '82 MB 240D barely gets out of its own way!

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:29 p.m. JFX001 SuperDork

  Just throwing this out there:

  http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/1963722961.html

  Easy like Sunday Morning.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:32 p.m. Vigo HalfDork

  That would actually make a good tow vehicle... the 5.8 is pretty strong, and the E4OD is a freaking tank of a transmission.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:38 p.m. BoxheadTim Dork

  amg_rx7 wrote: As I see it, The problem with Diesel powered options is the higher buy in price and they all have very high mileage - 200k +. I would have to pay a premium to buy an older Diesel vehicle with higher mileage than an equivalent gas powered vehicle that is newer and has lower mileage. The high mileage turns me off b/c lots of the smaller parts are original - suspension, bushings, bearings, rear ends, transmissions etc and could cause a potential maintenance $$ spiral. Is my thinking off in this regard?

  IIRC the Dodge Cummins ones were described by someone on here as a 400,000 mile engine in a 100,000 mile chassis, but there seem to be a lot of them around with humongous miles and they're still going.

  I'm still kicking myself that I missed out on a '93 for $5k out here that needed a little maintenance and a new windshield. Strangely enough it was sold by the time I got my act together to get there.

  I drove a '95 F250 PowerStroke on Sunday and I think it would have made a decent tow rig if it had had any brakes to speak of (and a realistic price). That had 190k on it and seemed to be pretty OK.

  BTW, I just noticed this on Redding CL: http://redding.craigslist.org/cto/1965762613.html

  I don't think it's AWD, otherwise I'd be talking to my boss about taking the afternoon off...

  Sanity is vastly overrated.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 12:49 p.m. volvoclearinghouse Reader

  BoxheadTim wrote: IIRC the Dodge Cummins ones were described by someone on here as a 400,000 mile engine in a 100,000 mile chassis, but there seem to be a lot of them around with humongous miles and they're still going. I'm still kicking myself that I missed out on a '93 for $5k out here that needed a little maintenance and a new windshield. Strangely enough it was sold by the time I got my act together to get there. I drove a '95 F250 PowerStroke on Sunday and I think it would have made a decent tow rig if it had had any brakes to speak of (and a realistic price). That had 190k on it and seemed to be pretty OK. BTW, I just noticed this on Redding CL: http://redding.craigslist.org/cto/1965762613.html I don't think it's AWD, otherwise I'd be talking to my boss about taking the afternoon off...

  Mine is a '92, extended cab longbed. That price seems about right for a 2wd model, if it were 4x4 and it was as nice as it sounds, its a steal. Rust is the main enemy of these trucks, and the electronics can be a bit finnicky, but if you live in a rust-free area most of the battle is won. Luckily, the electronics don't control the engine (they do the OD, though, on automatic models) so you can always get home, even in the even of an EMP.

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  Sept. 21, 2010 1:09 p.m. wcelliot Reader

  Just another point to consider... 4x4 is sometimes not a huge cost penalty on these trucks, is generally reliable, and doesn't extact a huge mpg penalty. And it's been useful several times when I've been towing (as well as in winter for general slogging, etc).

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