Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Learn me Koni shocks 1 2

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:22 p.m. mndsm HalfDork

  So, I recently decided against better judgement, to dump a giant pile of cash into my ms3. I've ordered all sorts of bolt on intake and exhaust parts. Tuning is on the way, so I have the power side sorted. I've started with the suspension, ordering a set of Hotchkis sway bars for said vehicle. I have wheels and sticky rubber coming in (Rotas... whee! and either Star specs or KDW2's, haven't decided yet. I'm a sucker for tread pattern, so the KDW's are sort of winning.). I'll be running pretty wide for the vehicle, at a 17x9+42mm offset, and 245/40/17 tires. She's gonna stick good. However, the springs and shocks/struts leave something to be desired in my opinion. My eventual suspension goal is to have the car outhandle my Mini Cooper S.

  On to to the important stuff. My measurements based on wheel size and width pretty much negate the use of coilovers, as they tend to run wider than the stock suspension setup, plus they're a bajillionty dollars for a good set. I've got my mind pretty much locked on upgraded shocks and springs. I've been looking at the Eibach either pro or street kit ( keep thinking pro, cause it sounds cooler), and Koni yellows. Problem is, I'm not REAL familiar with the Konis. What kind of things am I going to need to know in order to be able to purchase a set that won't make my car ride like a Honda on cut springs? I don't care if the ride is harsh, as far as i'm concerned if my passengers don't like it, they can walk. I just need to make sure that my rebound/damping rate is within spec of the Eibachs, so I don't run into oddball oscillations, and I'm unsure of the best way to approach that.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:35 p.m. mw Reader

  call koni, find out what spring rates they recomend for the konis on a ms3. Then find out the spring rates of the eibach springs. Done! If you want to run different rates, than the koni yellows handle, you can even get them revalved to handle whatever you want.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:39 p.m. turboswede SuperDork

  Typically the adjustable coil-over sleeves use springs that are smaller in diameter than the factory pieces and therefore can produce a little extra wiggle room for tires.

  I'd be curious to see pictures of an adjustable coil-over strut and spring versus a stock spring and strut assembly.

  You can of course add adjustable sleeves to the Koni's to get the spring rate and height you need.

  I second the idea of contacting Koni and Eibach to talk specs. Knowing static your corner weights would help of course.

  "I can pretty much guarantee that when you were in both lanes sideways you didn't have your turn signal on." - engineerd

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:42 p.m. mndsm HalfDork

  All good to know.

  Go fast or go broke.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:43 p.m. poopshovel SuperDork

  Maybe I'm unclear on what you're really looking for here, but it sounds like the Konis would be a great fit for you. Unless you're ordering a re-valved set (unlikely,) you don't need to "know anything" before ordering a set. They should be able to handle either the "pro" or "street" kit springs no problem; we're not talking 800 lb./in. spring rates, right?

  Regardless, it wouldn't hurt to give Koni a call. Their tech folks are really helpful. Hell, I think Lee Grimes might even be on the board here.

  Aye, que pena.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:50 p.m. m4ff3w Dork

  Another Koni employee used to be on the boards here as well. His name slips my memory, but he helped me when I did DIY coilovers on my Volvo. He was incredibly helpful.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 12:58 p.m. mndsm HalfDork

  Yeah, I'm really not looking for anything fancy. I wanna firm up the suspension, maybe lose some of the dive the front end experiences under hard braking (It gets the back end quite squirrely, not going when I come in hot on a carousel turn and she wants to step on me) and ultimately, all I really want to do is outpull the mini in corners. I have the power in spades, and it's only going up from there, so I'm not worried about that. I've never been 100% on the suspension, so I think you're right, a call to Koni is in order. Need to make sure I have Koni money first.

  Go fast or go broke.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 4:36 p.m. Matt B Reader

  Like others have said, the Koni Yellow/Sports will handle almost any reasonably streetable spring you throw at them. Not sure about the MS3 units, but all the civic/integra and MR2 Konis are said to support up to about 500-600lb/in springs.

  FYI - the OTS spring kits from Eibach are usually progressive rate springs. Again, dunno if the MS3 kits are progressive, but it's highly likely. This could either be good or bad depending on what you want from the suspension of course. I think they're a great compromise for a street car, but you might leave a little on the table at autocross compared to a linear rate. Most people find linear rate springs to be more predictable at the limit.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 5:26 p.m. wbjones HalfDork

  lb/in springs. ??

  am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb)

  I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  understeer: when you hit the wall with the front end,,, oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back end.... horsepower: how hard you hit that wall.... torque: how far you drag that wall

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  Feb. 9, 2010 5:29 p.m. Streetwiseguy New Reader

  wbjones wrote: lb/in springs. ?? am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb) I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  Pounds per inch- it takes 700 pounds to compress the rear corner of my Neon 1 inch.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 6:36 p.m. m4ff3w Dork

  wbjones wrote: lb/in springs. ?? am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb) I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  I've never seen auto springs not listed in lb/in.

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  Feb. 9, 2010 7:32 p.m. RedS13Coupe Reader

  wbjones wrote: lb/in springs. ?? am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb) I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  Spring rates are just force needed for a given compression. (except for kg/mm, which is just wrong :P but commonly used cause what the hell is a newton... you know?)

  But automotive springrates given in pounds are generally in inches.

  Think about it... with a 700lb spring (which is pretty damn stiff) the spring would get compressed a full foot on most cars if it was 700lb/ft. And its DEFINITELY not ft/lb, because 700 feet of compression for each pound wouldn't get you very far with out some SERIOUSLY long springs :D

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  Feb. 9, 2010 8:12 p.m. wbjones HalfDork

  m4ff3w wrote:

  wbjones wrote: lb/in springs. ?? am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb) I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  I've never seen auto springs not listed in lb/in.

  my bad I finally woke up enough to realize what I was doing....

  understeer: when you hit the wall with the front end,,, oversteer: when you hit the wall with the back end.... horsepower: how hard you hit that wall.... torque: how far you drag that wall

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  Feb. 9, 2010 11:52 p.m. Travis_K Dork

  I have driven and ridden in 2 cars with eibach pro kit springs, a b13 sentra, and a mk2 gti. In both cases they were ricer appearance mods that decrease performance. Its entirely possible that the pro kit springs for your car are totally different than the ones i have had experience with, but unless that is the case, if your goal is to increase handling performance and not ride like a honda with cut springs, looking elsewhere for springs should be at the top of your list.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 12:02 a.m. Travis_K Dork

  I just looked and AWR sells bilstiens. In my opinion, i cant imagine a reason to buy konis if bilstiens are available for your car, becasue bilstiens are superior in performance and durability to konis in every case that i have seen.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 9:22 a.m. Dr. Hess SuperDork

  wbjones wrote: lb/in springs. ?? am I not understanding something here... I'd have sworn that spring rates were lb/ft (or ft/lb) I know there is a difference, just not sure what it is

  http://www.drhess.net/Clip_n_Saves.htm Then click "Converting spring rates (lb/in to Kg/mm): A lesson in dimensional analysis"

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  Feb. 10, 2010 9:29 a.m. SpeedTheory Reader

  Hey, I've got an Eibach front sway bar I'd unload cheaply if you want for it. $140 shipped for a GRMer.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 10:12 a.m. Matt B Reader

  Travis_K wrote: I have driven and ridden in 2 cars with eibach pro kit springs, a b13 sentra, and a mk2 gti. In both cases they were ricer appearance mods that decrease performance. Its entirely possible that the pro kit springs for your car are totally different than the ones i have had experience with, but unless that is the case, if your goal is to increase handling performance and not ride like a honda with cut springs, looking elsewhere for springs should be at the top of your list.

  From what I've seen of the product line, as long as they were matched with proper dampers (i.e. not blown or stock) the prokit springs shouldn't decrease performance. Their "drop" is usually very reasonable, and far from ricer territory (around an inch on the 3 cars I've used them on). Also, all the prokit spring rates I've been familiar with are appropriate for the amount of lowering and certainly helped handling. No riding on bumpstops or wallowing in corners. They're not going to win any autocross championships, but they're also a lot more forgiving on the street than the usual linear-rate coilover spring. All-in-all they're a pretty mild aftermarket spring.

  I'll probably end up putting my foot in my mouth, but I would bet that those cars you mentioned didn't have an entirely healthy suspension. Old bushings, loose balljoints, worn tie-rod ends, and most often inadequate struts will make any car seem "ricer" no matter what springs they have. Dunno, going out on a limb here.

  There is of course, a ton of subjective opinions on springs depending on what people want and/or expect from their car. Luckily, springs are pretty simple to quantify. There's a length, a rate, and a estimated drop that is a function of the other two. Things get a little more complicated with progressive rate springs, but as long as the manufacturer lists the range then it's not too hard to make comparisons. I'm not going to tell anybody, "go buy the Eibach springs cause I bought some and they're totally awesome dude!" Just look at the stock rates, and the advertised rates for any spring you are considering. Make a judgment call based on what kind of compromise you want.

  Springs are easy, dampers on the other hand . . .

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  Feb. 10, 2010 10:23 a.m. 93celicaGT2 SuperDork

  I've had Pro-kits on two of my cars, and they're utter trash. Feel just as sloppy as the original stuff, and even if you're going for a looks department, 1" is nothing.

  The Sportlines were marginally better.

  I'd steer away from either, though.

  Of course, this is my opinion, and mine only.

  Now, i'm fully prepared to be flamed for this next information that i'm about to divulge, since this IS known as a "ricer company."

  I run Megan Racing springs on all 3 of my cars. And they're great. Well... springs on the Escort and the MX6, full adjustable coilover setup on the Celica.

  The difference going from the Prokit to the Megans on the Escort was amazing, and the ride quality actually seemed to improve. It didn't have that dolphin wobbly feel anymore. Rides smooth, and yes, it's firm, but not painful like the Celica.

  1992 Celica GT (FSP), 1993 Ford Escort GT (HS), 1990 Mazda MX6 GT Turbo (13.27@118mph)

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  Feb. 10, 2010 10:41 a.m. SpeedTheory Reader

  Travis_K wrote: I just looked and AWR sells bilstiens. In my opinion, i cant imagine a reason to buy konis if bilstiens are available for your car, becasue bilstiens are superior in performance and durability to konis in every case that i have seen.

  Pass me some of whatever you're smoking, thanks!

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  Feb. 10, 2010 11:00 a.m. Dr. Hess SuperDork

  I have GC coilovers (came with Eibach springs) on top of Koni's on my AE92. I'm happy with the setup. I have them cranked up to about stock ride height so I can get up and down my driveway. I'll bottom out on a hard turn with a big bump, but even the Camry will bottom out there if I pushed it that hard. I put Koni bump stops in, which helps a lot. I had 2 extras from the Koni coilover set I bought for the Locost and I used them on the Rolla. If I need more for the Locost, I'll get them then.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 11:04 a.m. m4ff3w Dork

  I've never had Bils or Koni's fail (or used both in an identical application), but I just prefer Konis.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 11:07 a.m. Tom Heath Marketing / Club Coordinator

  SpeedTheory wrote:

  Travis_K wrote: I just looked and AWR sells bilstiens. In my opinion, i cant imagine a reason to buy konis if bilstiens are available for your car, becasue bilstiens are superior in performance and durability to konis in every case that i have seen.

  Pass me some of whatever you're smoking, thanks!

  I rarely speak in absolutes, and I think that a lot depends on the application. I prefer Bilsteins over any brand on my Miata (as long as they've been revalved) but don't care for them on some cars.

  I had Koni Sport shocks on a Ford Focus a few years back and thought they were a great medium duty, dual purpose solution.

  I tried drag racing, but kept blowing the apex for turn 2...

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  Feb. 10, 2010 11:50 a.m. mndsm HalfDork

  Hmmm. Seems Koni yellows win. Now to find springs. Tein S-techs are in the lead, because they give me an appropriate drop, and Tein isn't known for making junk products.

  Go fast or go broke.

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  Feb. 10, 2010 11:58 a.m. Travis_K Dork

  Hmm, its possible that the struts on the cars i imentioned wernt in the best shape, but I think that would be more a result of the car regularly slamming into the bump stops hard enough to rattle the windows than anything else. I was slightly wrong about the product named though, the ones i was complaining about before were sportlines, my moms gtp had pro kit springs on the back when we got it, but it had pretty much the same effect (destroyed struts, regular contact with the bumpstops, etc).
  

  As far as konis go, they are pretty good, just not as good as bilstiens for any application i have seen. Bilstiens last alot longer, they are usually cheaper, and the stock valving for most cars works alot better on the street than konis do. Im my experience, konis have trouble keeping the car from bouncing too much over bigger bumps.

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