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I've recently fallen in love with the look of E34 5-series and I'm thinking about possibly picking one up.
I know the 3 series cars are known to be responsive driver's cars... how about the 5-series? How is the aftermarket for these cars? Should I opt for the M5 or the 535?
Thanks in advance!
Not really a drivers car IMO. I have a 540i sport with the 6-speed and it is a really nice car on the highway, but the steering feel is a bit dull and it's not nearly as fun as my E30's have been in the past.
^^That's interesting. I reckon they hustle alright for a big sedan, and an M5 is certainly what I would consider a driver's car. You're right, though, they're definitely in their element eating up the highway miles.
"Just as a proverb says, one should always ny escort prepare for a rainy day." - GRM canoe
I've owned a 535 and later an M5. The aftermarket for these cars is close to non-existent. The only BMW worse for mods is the 7 series. Actually the E38 might even have more stance type mod support than the E34.
Don't get the 535. It's slow and sounds like crap. I was angry with all of the enthusiastic but delusional owners who spewed the same prepackaged statements about how the car is all about ripping up the backroads with the windows down, listening to the music of the engine. In any form resembling stock, it's a soft boat with mediocre power and the engine sounds like a sewing machine. The only cure to the latter is an exhaust which drowns out engine noises but then you'll want to shoot yourself on the highway. The steering boxes are recirc. ball, and unless you buy a new one, ALL of them will have staggering play on center. The steering is also slow.
The M5 is on a different planet. The engine sounds amazing, the car goes! Mine ate its engine and I had it rebuild with some power adders incl 95mm high comp JE pistons. From a standstill, I could keep up with very healthy E39 M5s and on the back straight at MoSport, I would walk 996 C4Ss. I've also hit an indicated 285 and 290 twice upon a time in Mexico.
You won't be disappointed by the M5. Don't be scared by the ownership cost boogieman stories. There's almost no difference vs a 535. The largest difference is probably valve adjustment, which is free on the 535 and could be a few hundred bucks for the M5 depending on how many shims you need. You should be using good oil in your car regardless, so that's a wash too. Brakes, yeah they cost more but not THAT much and how often do you do them?
But it's no track car. Which is why I sold it. I did a lot to make it very competent on the track but all those things made it worse on the street and it was still a big and heavy sedan. To make it as fast as an E36 with some bolt on power adders and the biggest slicks you can fit under the sheet metal, you'd need a turbo, and box flares with 12" wheels.
The E34 530 I own does pretty good for a big sedan and scares people during laps at various tracks.
I had it at NCCAR and Road Atl and it did fairly well. It is soft and steering is slow compared to ANYTHING with R&P, but not wallowie. The car is capable, but it just takes a different driving style.
What really hurts the car is the lack of limited slip diff. The 3.0L V8 isn't known for it's tq or pwr (another strangled motor from BMW), but with the right mods it does sing pretty well from 3K to 6.5K.
You're only shocks, springs, bars and wheel/tires away from seriously capable big sport sedan.
-=PJ=- "Oh FFFFFFFUUUUUUUU . . ." - - - http://www.strikezerogarage.com
I was expecting to hear better things about the E34... I'm slightly disappointed now.
The car will mostly be a daily driver with the occasional track days that I might go to every couple of months. In that case, would the car be a better choice than a E36?
The E34 is a beautiful car. It was fast for a sedan in its day and it out-handled all the other 5 passenger cars of it's era. They eat up highway miles like butter. I love the big six motors and so the 535 with a 5 speed is one I want. They are bulletproof. It is NOT a track car though. It's a cruiser.
Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: It was fast for a sedan in its day and it out-handled all the other 5 passenger cars of it's era.
I think you are missing some qualifiers, because the E36 substantially overlapped the E34... I saw a 1995 540i at the junkyard last weekend--shoot there was only 1524 of those in the USA! http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/pts/2579930591.html
HStockSolo wrote:Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: It was fast for a sedan in its day and it out-handled all the other 5 passenger cars of it's era.I think you are missing some qualifiers, because the E36 substantially overlapped the E34... I saw a 1995 540i at the junkyard last weekend--shoot there was only 1524 of those in the USA! http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/pts/2579930591.html
No, the E34 is a 5 series. Bigger, longer wheelbase and much more plush on a long highway ride. It compares directly to the E39 not the E36.
Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering
BigD wrote: I've owned a 535 and later an M5. The aftermarket for these cars is close to non-existent. The only BMW worse for mods is the 7 series. Actually the E38 might even have more stance type mod support than the E34. Don't get the 535. It's slow and sounds like crap. I was angry with all of the enthusiastic but delusional owners who spewed the same prepackaged statements about how the car is all about ripping up the backroads with the windows down, listening to the music of the engine. In any form resembling stock, it's a soft boat with mediocre power and the engine sounds like a sewing machine. The only cure to the latter is an exhaust which drowns out engine noises but then you'll want to shoot yourself on the highway. The steering boxes are recirc. ball, and unless you buy a new one, ALL of them will have staggering play on center. The steering is also slow.
I just sold my E34 for an E36. Steering is what sealed it for me. The steering is slow and numb on an E34. That was my only real complaint. Fantastic car otherwise.
I dunno what you mean by not having much of an aftermarket, though, and if anything the exhaust on both my E28 535is and E34 535i were a bit loud. Some of the really big dollar suspension stuff isn't available (or at least isn't cheap) but you'll never have trouble finding an exhaust, header, poly bushings, turbo or whatever. There are tons of parts you can cheaply swap in from the rest of the BMW family. Mine had an E9 flywheel, E28 M5 clutch, shifter parts from an E46, bushings from an E34 M5, limited slip diff out of an E32, etc. With shocks/springs and fresh suspension bushings there was nothing wallow-y about it. The weight difference is ~300lbs between comparable E36's and E34's, so it's not that awful. It weighs about what an E46 M3 does. The only way I'll get my E36 328is handling better is with exactly the same upgrades.
My 535i was a fine driver's car, it just drives different from a 3-series. There's nothing delicate or 'precise' in the handling but it loves to be shoved around and abused a bit and it always felt completely unflappable. It's a car that really likes to be driven hard. An E36 feels pretty fragile in comparison. And having something that physically expansive corner like it does? Major cognitive dissonance.
The M30 engine is a classic. The car sounds and drives like the 1960's technology it is, which is either good or bad depending on your perspective. I loved it. Grumble grumble grumble idle and turbine smooth howl at high RPM.
Mod for mod, the M5 is better. But the price difference is pretty big and puts you into turbo territory or bankrolls upgrading a 525i with an S50 motor, without the potential for a $10-$15K engine rebuild bill....
Alright, I think the E34 is still in the running for me over the E36. I regularly drive people around and the E36 is a bit too small for my liking, although it sounds like a much better performance car.
How is the MPG for the E34? And has anyone attempted to throw an LS into one of these babies?
ppddppdd wrote: I dunno what you mean by not having much of an aftermarket, though, and if anything the exhaust on both my E28 535is and E34 535i were a bit loud. Some of the really big dollar suspension stuff isn't available (or at least isn't cheap) but you'll never have trouble finding an exhaust, header, poly bushings, turbo or whatever. There are tons of parts you can cheaply swap in from the rest of the BMW family. Mine had an E9 flywheel, E28 M5 clutch, shifter parts from an E46, bushings from an E34 M5, limited slip diff out of an E32, etc. With shocks/springs and fresh suspension bushings there was nothing wallow-y about it. The weight difference is ~300lbs between comparable E36's and E34's, so it's not that awful. It weighs about what an E46 M3 does. The only way I'll get my E36 328is handling better is with exactly the same upgrades.
Yeah, there are a few options but an aftermarket that does not make. You'll know what I mean when you dive into things with the E36. It won't be a matter of choosing HD or Sport Bilsteins, or one of 3 sets of springs, or one of a few exhausts etc. The choices will be endless.
The E28 is actually better supported, especially for FI thanks to TCD.
But in general, it's a joke compared to the 3 series aftermarket (which is itself a joke compared to domestic and JDM support but I digress).
ppddppdd wrote: Mod for mod, the M5 is better. But the price difference is pretty big and puts you into turbo territory or bankrolls upgrading a 525i with an S50 motor, without the potential for a $10-$15K engine rebuild bill....
This isn't true. The M5s have plummeted in price and 535s have gone up. 535s were nearly worthless a few years ago, now a clean one can fetch 4-5k, while M5s can be had for well under 10 all day. An S52 swap will cost you more in the end and get you 40% of the way there in performance.
The engine rebuild can be expensive, depending on how much is damaged but overall, it's the same as any 24v BMW rebuild. The stuff about 2-300k being their lifespan is also hooey. Like all motors, they depend on their service history and are more sensitive to it. But I do know people with 400k on their engines that have had no issues. I was not so lucky...
Don't get me wrong though, I do not regret owning either car. For what they were, there was nothing for the money that could come close in terms of a comfort and performance package. But if you want a performance/cruiser compromise, the M5 is the only E34 to consider in my opinion. I would personally take the E36 M3/4/5 over it. Or maybe even an E46 330i.
vincephan wrote: Alright, I think the E34 is still in the running for me over the E36. I regularly drive people around and the E36 is a bit too small for my liking, although it sounds like a much better performance car.
Cross shopping the E34 and the E36 isn't the same thing.
You cross-shop the E30, E36 and E46. They are the nimble smaller sedan that you turn into a race car.
You cross shop the E28, E34 and E39. They are a euro-buick that you soak up large stretches of road in or haul clients out to dinner in. They have some sporting capability... closer to "She don't sweat much for a fat girl" than "wow, she is hotter than Jimmy Swaggart in a motel parking lot".
Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Cross shopping the E34 and the E36 isn't the same thing. You cross-shop the E30, E36 and E46. You cross shop the E28, E34 and E39.As far as suspension the E30, E32, and E34 are more similar. And the E36, E38, E39, and E46 are more similar. The E34 was the last of the old BMWs--recirculating ball steering and rear semi-trailing arms. The E39 is quite a bit different vehicle. I am not sure why someone would be cross shopping an E34 and an E39.
Because they are the same class of vehicle, designed and meant to fit the same needs. I've certainly cross-shopped them E34's and E39's for all the reasons GPS mentioned. And because they make great family sedans with decent room for car seats.
The E39 540i and E38 (I know 7 series) still have the recirc ball (with servotronic).
I love the mine since (as it has been said) likes to be tossed about and beaten into submission.
The 535i, IMO, is a good choice. All the same suspension goodies for a M5 will fit and the M30 loves boost :)
You can eat miles in comfort, haul clients, and scare people on the weekends. . . .
-=PJ=- "Oh FFFFFFFUUUUUUUU . . ." - - - http://www.strikezerogarage.com
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:vincephan wrote: Alright, I think the E34 is still in the running for me over the E36. I regularly drive people around and the E36 is a bit too small for my liking, although it sounds like a much better performance car.Cross shopping the E34 and the E36 isn't the same thing.
You cross-shop the E30, E36 and E46. They are the nimble smaller sedan that you turn into a race car.
You cross shop the E28, E34 and E39. They are a euro-buick that you soak up large stretches of road in or haul clients out to dinner in. They have some sporting capability... closer to "She don't sweat much for a fat girl" than "wow, she is hotter than Jimmy Swaggart in a motel parking lot".
The only reason I'm trying to cross shop them is because I want a car that can do everything... (which obviously isn't going to happen) and I'm contemplating between my wants and needs.
I would want something with more track potential (E36) but I know I'm going to need something that can haul people around comfortable around as well. I was hoping the E34 would be more like the slightly chubbier brother of the E36, not the morbidly obese cousin.
The only thing holding me back now is the horrible gas mileage the 535i gets.
I really don't understand why everybody recommends the 535i (M30) over the later 525i (M50). I had a '94 525it 5-speed with the M50. Add M3 cams and a chip and it will blow any 535i out of the water while getting better gas mileage. Add headers and an exhaust and it's making a much sweeter exhaust note as well. Plus you get 24 valves instead of 12, and your choice of VANOS or non-VANOS depending on year. I would only recommend the M30 if you plan on sticking a turbo on it; they are excellent for that purpose.
There are also a few differential options out there. Most have the 3.23; there is a 3.55 LSD that swaps right in and really wakes the car up.
Normally the steering problems associated with the E34 can be helped SIGNIFICANTLY by an upgrade to 750iL support arm bushings and a refresh of everything else. There are a LOT of bushings and ball joints down there that will work against each other to cause trouble. I bought a $400 kit from FCP Groton that included all new control arms, support arms w/750 bushings, sway bar end links, pitman arm, tie rods, etc etc and it was like night and day once installed.
My old wagon (the paint was rolled-on Rust-o-leum)
~Desmond 1984 VW Jetta GLI STOLEN 9/11/09 :(
As much of a fan of the big six (M30) motors as I am, if you're worried about fuel economy and have to drive people around for business (as opposed to family and friends, who just have to suck it up if they don't like your car), I'd argue that the more modern M50 in the late 525i would be your best option in an E34. That said, you could probably find E39s (528i, also M50-series) in the same general price range.
I don't understand the hand-wringing over fuel economy. They M50 or big 6, they all get 25 to 28mpg on the highway and 19 to 23 in the city depending on how you drive.
That translates to about an extra 90 - 100 gallons of fuel in thirty-thousand miles for the worst case scenario. So... an extra $300 to $400 every 30k... pennies a day unless you drive 60k a year.
Lord of drivel and harbinger of Floundering
SlickDizzy wrote: I bought a $400 kit from FCP Groton that included all new control arms, support arms w/750 bushings, sway bar end links, pitman arm, tie rods, etc etc and it was like night and day once installed.
How did you find the fit and quality of the FCP kit? I've had that in my ebay 'watch' list for months, but the e28 forum folk seem vehemently opposed to it.
"Just as a proverb says, one should always ny escort prepare for a rainy day." - GRM canoe
I think I'm going to set out to search for a 525i. The money I save on gas would allow me to pick up an M30 over time and build that without having to put the 525i on down time when I finally have enough money to turbo the car.
Hopefully they're cheaper than 535i's otherwise I'll just go with that instead.
Luke wrote:SlickDizzy wrote: I bought a $400 kit from FCP Groton that included all new control arms, support arms w/750 bushings, sway bar end links, pitman arm, tie rods, etc etc and it was like night and day once installed.How did you find the fit and quality of the FCP kit? I've had that in my ebay 'watch' list for months, but the e28 forum folk seem vehemently opposed to it.
Some guy from FCP Groton signed on to the mye28 site a year or so ago to talk about their products. He acknowledged they have had a bad reputation in the past for supplying cheap parts that wouldn't last, but he said they've been working on that and are now supplying good stuff (i.e. Lemforder.) Still, it would probably be good to call them and find out directly what's in the ebay kits before ordering.
I got the same FCP front suspension kit on mine and I haven't had any problems this far . . .
-=PJ=- "Oh FFFFFFFUUUUUUUU . . ." - - - http://www.strikezerogarage.com
Luke wrote:SlickDizzy wrote: I bought a $400 kit from FCP Groton that included all new control arms, support arms w/750 bushings, sway bar end links, pitman arm, tie rods, etc etc and it was like night and day once installed.How did you find the fit and quality of the FCP kit? I've had that in my ebay 'watch' list for months, but the e28 forum folk seem vehemently opposed to it.
I thought the FCP Groton kit was awesome. I put a lot of hard miles on it without issue. I think a large part of the problem is that people install the kit incorrectly (you torque all the bolts UNDER LOAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! or you will RIP THE BUSHINGS IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!) and blame FCP. Plus, they're the only place that can send you support arms with brand new 750 bushings already pressed in.
I recall the post that Stuart mentioned. Also, nobody could provide any evidence against the Groton kit that wasn't anecdotal in nature. Everybody that bought it and put it on loved it as much as I did.
I also bought the kit directly from their website. They offer an all-OEM kit for about $800, and they offer an FCP-brand kit for $400. I went for the FCP brand and it seemed just as good as Lemfoerder stuff for half the price.
~Desmond 1984 VW Jetta GLI STOLEN 9/11/09 :(
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