Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » GTI 1.8T project, cyl head refreshing 1 2

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  Dec. 11, 2010 9:31 p.m. Sonic Dork

  I bought this from the GRM classifieds http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/2004-gti-vamddcpa-1500/292...

  The completely unconfirmed diagnosis was a slipped timing belt, and bent valves. The car would runrough, barely, for about 15 seconds before refusing to run any more, but made oil pressure and didn't sound all that bad.
  

  Tonight I began the investigation, and ran a compression test on the cold engine. Results: #1 0, #2 195, #3 205, #4 0
  

  So it seems the initial diagnosis was correct! I'll be starting to pull the head off shortly, but as I haven't worked on a VW newer than 1985, I need some GRM knowledge.
  

  What are the good parts suppliers? I need a head set and headbolts, obviously, as well as the polydrive special tool to remove the head.
  

  Any shops you know of that specialize in rebuilding these heads? I can bring it to the local machine shop, which is fine for V8 stuff, not sure how they will feel about 20 valves in one head. I saw this place, that claims to freshen up the head, replace the bent valves, etc, for $350 and a 2 day turnaround time. Anyone heard of them or have any other sources? http://www.20valves.com/catalog.htm#1

  I know this thing is going to have a check engine light or 5 when it goes back together, just because it is a MkIV VW. Will a regular OBD2 scanner work to read/clear those or do I need a VAG com (makes me giggle just to type it).
  

  Any tips or tricks the 1.8T jedi have to impart would be wonderful.
  

  Thanks

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  Dec. 11, 2010 10:21 p.m. John Brown SuperDork

  The VW dealer is actually a good place for a lot of the hard parts like head bolts. ARP suppliers as well.

  The cam tool and head bolt socket are available on any tool truck.

  Our NAPA store does industrial engines as well as W8 cylinder heads all very well.

  IF you do not need to reset basic readiness then a standard OBD2 scan tool will work. You will not need to know until you clear codes and the basic readiness not set code comes up.

  Internationally known as The Brown Stig

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  Dec. 11, 2010 10:39 p.m. Paul_VR6 Reader

  Most spring tools don't work on the center intake valve. We all chipped in and bought the tools from the dealer to do a few motors. Exhaust valves are most likely bent, so you might get lucky there. The stock exhaust valves are boat anchors, so going to a drop in aftermarket valve is worth it if you have to replace them anyway.

  Sometimes getting a known good head is cheaper, really depends on how many valves are bent.

  Good luck with the car though, I just missed it. Would have been fun with my 3.2 in it...

  -Paul - 1995 GTI VR6 12.833@105.48 kptuned.com

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  Dec. 11, 2010 10:55 p.m. Sonic Dork

  Quasi: Any discounts available at the dealer like the BMWCCA discount for BMW dealers? THe trouble with a tool truck is that I work for an insurance company and tool trucks don't visit us, I never know how to actually buy from a tool truck as I can't find them.
  

  Paul: I've looked around a bit for used heads, they seem to be going for $500+ from junkyards, and I know I can get this head redone for less. Any suggestions? What are the preferred valves to use?

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 11, 2010 10:58 p.m. EvanB Dork

  All I can say is, good luck.

  Formerly jdmae92

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  Dec. 12, 2010 8:10 a.m. John Brown SuperDork

  Sonic wrote: Quasi: Any discounts available at the dealer like the BMWCCA discount for BMW dealers? THe trouble with a tool truck is that I work for an insurance company and tool trucks don't visit us, I never know how to actually buy from a tool truck as I can't find them. Paul: I've looked around a bit for used heads, they seem to be going for $500+ from junkyards, and I know I can get this head redone for less. Any suggestions? What are the preferred valves to use?

  Dealer parts rarely discount, unless you know the parts guy and he "coupons" you down.

  A $500.00 good used head may be less than a $350.00 clean up job, the spring tool, valves, and the stuff you find broken on the way. Also lets make sure it didn't take out a piston as well before buying anything. A used engine may be easiest/most cost effective.

  Internationally known as The Brown Stig

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  Dec. 12, 2010 8:14 a.m. John Brown SuperDork

  I just queried www.car-part.com and the median price for a 70k engine was $1500.00 which is acceptable knowing what the asking price of your car was. I would see if there was one cheaper local to you.

  Internationally known as The Brown Stig

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  Dec. 12, 2010 8:23 a.m. 16vCorey SuperDork

  I bought my head bolt tool a long time ago, but I think I got it from Techtonics Tuning. I also have the valve spring compressor that they sell, and that thing has made me a lot of money. It works pretty well on a 20v, but as Paul said the center intake valve is a little tricky. The center intake valve and the exhaust valves are the ones that bend, so worst case scenario you need four exhaust valves and two intake valves. Check rock auto for the valves. Last time I put one together (about 6 months ago) there was a supplier that had them on clearance for something like $5 each. Just get some tools and dig in, you'll be fine.

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  Dec. 12, 2010 1:26 p.m. Sonic Dork

  OK, I'm going to try to pull the head today, I've heard a hex head will work in a pinch on these, at least for removal...I want the real thing to get proper torque for installation.

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 12, 2010 5:25 p.m. Supercoupe Reader

  What engine code is in your car? I have a good AUG head, actually a running engine I'd like to get rid of.

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  Dec. 12, 2010 8:16 p.m. Sonic Dork

  It is an AWP. Is there an internal difference, or is it just in the boost and engine management? Would your longblock be the same as the one I have?
  

  This car is giving itself a name...something I keep shouting as I'm working on it: Motherberkleyer. It just seems like a series of poor decisions from engineers that weren't really talking to each other. I'm used to Hondas, BMWs and Miatas. Any of those are like working on a single cylinder briggs compared to this damn thing. I've worked for several hours and am not even close to getting the damn head off. I still have the rats nets of crap on the transmission side, the turbo is still on the manifold and I can't get to anything to remove it, the intake manifold still has a few hoses holding it on. Why is the whole care full of these damn one time use only hoseclamps. I'm just cutting them all off now.
  

  To make matters worse, when I took a closer look at the plugs, the two from the dead cyls have mechanical damage, sooooo, likely I will need a new engine as I bet it is a mess in there. I've looked around, there is a yard about an hour from here with 6 of these with less than 80k for $1100, so that's probably the way I'll go here.

  On the subject of engine removal, any tips/tricks? Better to remove as a unit with the trans or by itself? Better to out the top or the bottom?

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 13, 2010 7:41 a.m. JThw8 SuperDork

  In reply to Sonic:

  Sent ya an email with some potential help.

  Never worked on one of that vintage but they dont change much, eng/trans as a unit, out the bottom has always been the way.

  If that still uses the 12point internal hex bolts on the axle shafts I have the tool.
  

  If that's what you need for the head too I have a full set so I might have what ya need there.

  OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part." BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  Dec. 13, 2010 3:01 p.m. Ian F Dork

  I'm almost certain it uses the 12 pt 'triple-square' bolts. Those are on my '03 TDI. If you buy the ones from Pep Boys, be sure to buy a spare - they break.

  I haven't had to remove the head from my TDI (yet), but I've done two timing belts, which does require a fair amount of parts removal. It doesn't look like removing the head would require much more.

  Too bad our timing is bad... I would have gladly traded a VW head R&R for an M20 #1 rocker arm replacement. My garage (and mindset?) is far better suited for working on FWD cars. I read your first post and it sounds like me and the BMW... "damn Germans... who designed this effin' thing..." I guess it's what you're used to.

  MINI's use a lot of those "one-time-use" hose clamps as well. I re-use them all the time. I guess I'm used to them - plus, I bought the tool to re-clip them quickly - that in a way I like them better than worm clamps. Oh... and cable-type hose clamp pliers are almost a necessity for the turbo and intercooler hose clamps (providing they're similar to a TDI, and I understand they are).

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  Dec. 13, 2010 3:05 p.m. EvanB Dork

  Not sure what would be easiest on that but with my Scirocco I dropped the engine and trans out the bottom as a unit. Too much stuff in the way up top to bother with.

  Formerly jdmae92

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  Dec. 13, 2010 3:36 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

  Ian F wrote: I'm almost certain it uses the 12 pt 'triple-square' bolts. Those are on my '03 TDI. If you buy the ones from Pep Boys, be sure to buy a spare - they break.

  Cool, I've got those Sonic. Probably a few sets since I only ever use the one for the axles and keep breaking them so I have spares of the larger sizes. I finally bought a good quality one for the axle bolts since that one sees alot of use around here.

  OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part." BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  Dec. 13, 2010 6:06 p.m. Ian F Dork

  In reply to JThw8:

  Which brand did you get? I don't know when I'll need it, but I like to be ready.

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  Dec. 13, 2010 6:10 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

  Ian F wrote: In reply to JThw8: Which brand did you get? I don't know when I'll need it, but I like to be ready.

  The full sets were Lisle brand, they are ok(ish)

  Dont know, remember the brand on the "good" one but its an actual socket (the Lisle ones are just hex shaped and you can use them with a 1/2 inch socket, a bit sloppier) I bought the good one from an aircooled VW parts supplier quite some time ago.

  OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part." BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  Dec. 13, 2010 6:26 p.m. Ian F Dork

  Yeah, I have (and broke) a couple of the Lisle ones. If you get a chance to look at the socket one and see a label, that would be great.

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  Dec. 13, 2010 6:45 p.m. Sonic Dork

  Looks like I need a whole engine.
  

  Jim and Ian, thanks for the tips, I do need the axle removal tool. On the BABE cabrio I used hex keys and that gave less than desirable results.
  

  So tonight I got mad and got it the rest of the way apart. This thing must have made a hell of a racket when it went, as it sounded OK for running on 2 cylinders when I got it.
  

  Pics of the carnage:
  Cyl #1
  
  
  

  Cyl #4
  
  

  As compared to an undamaged piston:
  
  

  I found a local yard that has several of these from 76k-80k miles for $1125. I'll grab one of those this saturday and swap them out. By the time I get the bottom end apart to replace those two pistons, rings, bearings, and get a complete used head, gaskets, headbolts, etc, it is just cheaper and easier to drop in a complete used engine.

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 13, 2010 7:00 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

  Suckmo dude. Just lemme know if you wanna come grab the tool for the axles.

  OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part." BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

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  Dec. 13, 2010 8:29 p.m. Paul_VR6 Reader

  So did any of the valves bend or did the motor just eat itself? It's almost like the #4 exh valve broke and banged around there a bit and found it's way through 1...

  I always pull Mk2/3 motors right through the front, I take off the whole front clip, WAY easier then out the top/bottom. Never pulled a motor on a mk4 though but they don't look much different at first glance.

  -Paul - 1995 GTI VR6 12.833@105.48 kptuned.com

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  Dec. 13, 2010 10:20 p.m. Sonic Dork

  I really don't see any seriously bent valves. Aside from the obvious chunk missing out of the Cyl 1 exhaust valve, I see no other issues. On Cyl 4, one of the exhaust valves MAY be bent, or it might just be held open by the chunks of the cyl head that have been pulverized into the valve seat.
  

  I'm not really sure what happened to this one. It obviously got something that rattled around in both 1 and 4, and while a piece is obvious in 4, there is nothing noticeable in 1.

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 14, 2010 6:33 a.m. Pat Reader

  It's detonation damage. My guess is that it was run/boosted very lean, it was sprayed, boosted to hell without the proper set up, was mistuned or was tinkered with by someone that didn't know what they were doing.
  

  Truthfully, I bet that the belt didn't jump a tooth at all and that you likely have no bent valves. Your zero compression is a combo of broken exhaust valves and/or cracked/broken pistons.

  If you can slam in a good used motor, I'd probably go that route. That engine needs to be gone through completely. It's been pounded on and it has 150k+ miles. I'm sure there's more in there that you'll find if you dive deep enough.

  Pat

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  Dec. 14, 2010 7:47 a.m. Sonic Dork

  Hmmm. I see no signs that anythin has been modified under the hood. The last registered owner of the car seems to have been a middle age professional who had all of his work done at the dealer based on records, and they owned it since 2004 when it had 10k miles. The car is also super clean inside and out, and completely stock, doesn't look like some kid hooned it. If it was detonation, I wonder what caused it.

  Chris - 2007 BABE champion, 2008 2nd place. Miata, MGA, DiscoII 2010 - Trifecta of Crap in the Wartburg. $2002, $2006 $2010 challenger

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  Dec. 14, 2010 7:55 a.m. Pat Reader

  In reply to Sonic:

  Lack of fuel? Dying pump? Insufficient octane for the timing/boost being run? You sure the ECU/tune is stock? Any boost, octane, fueling or timing changes could cause detonation if not tuned properly.

  Pat

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