Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Eagle Talon. Bird of Prey or Complete Turkey? 1 2 3

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  Jan. 5, 2010 9:16 a.m. pinchvalve SuperDork

  Since the Gods hate me, they have decided to put a more than one $1K Eagle Talon TSi in my path. This should not be a big deal, except I have always wanted one. (Something to do with a ride in an ex-Pikes Peak car and a former Archer Bros. Race Car.)
  

  My assumption is that if the car is rust free, the mechanical stuff doesn't bother me. I know parts are plentiful, and I would enter the purchase knowing that I will be pulling the motor for a rebuild or a swap. The question is, how reliable is the rest of the chassis? I am cool with updating the suspension and brakes, but rebuilding transmissions and transfer cases is not in my scope, nor am I interested in learning.
  

  I am cool with a new project for a few months, but am I looking at a money pit that will never run right? Will I like the car if I cap the budget at $3K - $4K? I think it would be a great project car for GRM and since they are not getting on the ball, I may have to.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 9:23 a.m. bluesideup New Reader

  What year is the car? FWD or AWD?

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  Jan. 5, 2010 9:28 a.m. belteshazzar SuperDork

  I hate those cars.

  spending money I don't have to buy parts I don't need to impress people I don't know

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  Jan. 5, 2010 10:44 a.m. HeavyDuty Reader

  Well, I'm pretty sure we are seeing the same ones and I'm tempted as well. Everyone I know that has had one, including my buddy who owns an import shop and seems to always have 2 or 3 waiting to be worked on, says run far, far away. The first gens are supposedly pretty tight on interior space and I'm a big guy but I've yet to sit in one.

  I think it was the first generation that was famous for breaking off mounting tabs on the transmissions (for lack of a better word) although someone who knows how to weld can fix that. Rusty shock towers on the second generation seems to be thinning the population at a rapid clip.

  Current line up: 68 'maro, 71 Crown, 79 Royale, 83 S-10 Blazer, 85 AE86, 87 Yugo, 88 Volvo 740 Turbo, 90 Yugo, 2001 2500 HD Crew. Gone but not forgotten - 88 Celica All Trac, 91 s-10, 92 H22 Accord

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  Jan. 5, 2010 10:49 a.m. m4ff3w Dork

  

  Admittedly, I know little about them, I'm just spreading FUD.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 10:57 a.m. ReverendDexter Dork

  TSis came in both FWD and AWD (Eagle wasn't nice enough to delineate between the two in badging like Mitsubishi did). Personally, I wouldn't even consider a DSM that didn't power the rear tires.

  From what I understand, the crank-walk issues are exagerated, though the earlier 6-bolt motors aren't nearly as prone to it. I don't know what years are 6-bolt vs. 7 bolt, though.

  My friend has an AWD one, and I like it. I really like the way the cockpit surrounds the driver, though I could see some viewing it as claustrophobic.

  I wouldn't run away from one, that's for sure.

  --There is no turd more polished than the Ford Mustang--

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  Jan. 5, 2010 11:06 a.m. captainzib Reader

  

  Tsi AWD

  -Ali

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  Jan. 5, 2010 11:30 a.m. slefain Dork

  Paging Les, Les Burchett to the forums please....

  If I had a signature I would probably put it here.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 11:50 a.m. 4cylndrfury Dork

  squatty rear end launch FTW

  "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." - Leonardo DaVinci

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  Jan. 5, 2010 11:54 a.m. Armitage Reader

  pinchvalve wrote: My assumption is that if the car is rust free, the mechanical stuff doesn't bother me. I know parts are plentiful, and I would enter the purchase knowing that I will be pulling the motor for a rebuild or a swap.

  Is the motor bad? If it hasn't been heavily modified and otherwise runs okay you may not need to. My original motor was still running strong at 200k miles after a steady diet of 25 psi boost on pump gas for a decade. You may want to replace the turbo if it's got a lot of miles on it. A larger OEM Evo3 16g unit will run you ~$500 new. Updated manifold and o2 housing, new piping, gaskets, etc. will double that cost.

  The question is, how reliable is the rest of the chassis? I am cool with updating the suspension and brakes, but rebuilding transmissions and transfer cases is not in my scope, nor am I interested in learning.

  The chassis should be fine if it's not rusted. Rear brakes on rust belt cars seems to need to be replaced/rebuilt often but autoparts store rebuilts are cheap. Same with front CV halfshafts. Those are $60 new with no core these days. Xfer case should be fine if the recall was performed and it was kept filled with oil. Transmission will almost certainly be notchy and rebuilds are expensive at $1500 and up. DSM trans can hold a fair amount of power before breaking but they're not known for their smooth shifting, even with specialty gear oils.

  I am cool with a new project for a few months, but am I looking at a money pit that will never run right? Will I like the car if I cap the budget at $3K - $4K? I think it would be a great project car for GRM and since they are not getting on the ball, I may have to.

  There are so many upgrades available out there you could easily blow that budget if you got crazy. However, you should be able to go far with that amount if nothing major needs fixing. If original, plan on replacing the suspension. If it's an AWD car without a good maintenance history, plan on rebuilding the prop shaft (carrier bearings and u-joints). A clutch job alone can set you back a weekend and $500. If you get caught up in the upgrade cycle the project could easily go on forever. Almost a decade into mine and it's still not done to my satisfaction. It has, however, given me over 100k miles of service and had very few weeks of downtime.

  I guess it depends on your goals for the car as well. If you want to make a boost monster you're going to end up spending a lot more on replacement parts ;)

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  Jan. 5, 2010 11:58 a.m. mndsm Reader

  Hey! A thread I can contribute to!

  So- 1k$ DSM, I'm going to assume 1st gen. For some reason, even though the 2g DSM cars are more prone to breakage and the whole rusty tower thing, they're more desirable. Being a 1st gen, you have a few things to consider. If it's an early 1992 car or earlier (I wanna say the build dates are from like april 1992 back) it's going to be the 6 bolt. You want this. the 2g cars that do decide to shake the cranks around some are all going to be 7 bolts, and most of the 2g guys will do a 6 bolt swap before going for the BIG numbers. If it's EARLY 1992 only, you might have a gem on your hands, as those came with the 6 bolt engine, and the 4 bolt rear. prior to that, the rear was more prone to grenading, as it was only a 3 bolt design.... still pretty strong, but not designed for what DSM people do to them (AWD clutch drops are FUN, if entirely bad for the car). Other than that, the bellhousing tabs are prone to breakage, as previously mentioned. The biggest thing to worry about is the fact that a LOT of these cars are 20 years old or so, and they've probably been beaten to within an inch of their lives.

  The last major thing to look for is the ECU. Silly things liked to pop capacitors, and leak all over the place and corrode things.

  Go fast or go broke.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 12:44 p.m. 93gsxturbo Reader

  Bellhousing tabs only break if one of two conditions are met: 1. Some moron installed the trans with 3 of 4 bellhousing bolts in place (way too common) 2. Front or rear motor mounts/roll stoppers are not installed.

  Thats it. Never broken a trans that was properly installed. The biggest issue with all DSMs is they are cheap and morons can buy them. This not only tarnishes their reputation but also is the reason for seeing so many half-built hackjobs on the road. As a moderator on a DSM board, most members need to be shot in the face.
  

  If you are smart, read the VFAQ (www.vfaq.com) and know what you are doing and are not a super-cheap-ass, they are great. I have daily driven a lot of them and never had any problems, or at least any serious problems any worse than any other 100k+mile, turbocharged, all wheel drive sports car running more than 100% increase in rated horsepower on stock driveline components.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 12:46 p.m. mndsm Reader

  93gsxturbo wrote: Bellhousing tabs only break if one of two conditions are met: 1. Some moron installed the trans with 3 of 4 bellhousing bolts in place (way too common) 2. Front or rear motor mounts/roll stoppers are not installed. Thats it. Never broken a trans that was properly installed. The biggest issue with all DSMs is they are cheap and morons can buy them. This not only tarnishes their reputation but also is the reason for seeing so many half-built hackjobs on the road. As a moderator on a DSM board, most members need to be shot in the face. If you are smart, read the VFAQ (www.vfaq.com) and know what you are doing and are not a super-cheap-ass, they are great. I have daily driven a lot of them and never had any problems, or at least any serious problems any worse than any other 100k+mile, turbocharged, all wheel drive sports car running more than 100% increase in rated horsepower on stock driveline components.

  Which board out of curiosity? I used to frequent several of them back in the day.

  Also, what the man says is the truth. My 2g had almost 150k on it before the motor went south, and it was a 7 bolt at that.

  Go fast or go broke.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 1:57 p.m. plance1 HalfDork

  I used to see these cars running well in SCCA type racing when they were new. I would definitely be interested if it was AWD.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 3:59 p.m. pinchvalve SuperDork

  Definitely 1st Gen and AWD is what I want. (Buying the car I wanted when I was younger and all that). The issue is that most of the cars I have seen were heavily "modified" and most changes are questionable. I am thinking that if someone turned the boost up to 20 and blew up the motor, but everything else is stock and in good shape, then it is a good buy. Then I can drop in a rebuilt 6 bolt that is essentially stock but dead-nuts reliable.

  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Mahatma Gandhi.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 4:09 p.m. xci_ed6 HalfDork

  The problem is, even at 20psi it would take awhile to grenade a 4G63, so the drivetrain is probably abused as well.

  Also, most of the problems my brother had with them was wiring related, the high under hood temps just bake all the wiring.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 6:11 p.m. 93gsxturbo Reader

  mndsm wrote: Which board out of curiosity?

  Wisconsin DSM www.widsm.org
  

  I joined 'talk back in 2001, still cruise around there once in a while.

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  Jan. 5, 2010 6:58 p.m. vwcorvette New Reader

  I worked on the 2nd gen cars at the dealership. I personally like the first gen better. (Okay it was a Mitsu dealer). And as for rebuilding the trans--not hard at all. Would do them any day over the VW boxes I play with. Seem to come apart easier and even though there's an extra shaft in there to reverse the power flow(t-belt on driver's side with clockwise rotation means the crank is spinning in the wrong direction) the online support means you can do it necessary. We used to hill climb one out or the dealership here in Vermont. Car was crazy fast and actually very reliable. At least until it went OC and decided to take out a few saplings and such!

  George Rooney

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  Jan. 5, 2010 7:37 p.m. petegossett Dork

  My only comment is from when Eric Stemler used to autox one, and I was in line behind him at an event during a major downpour. I swear when he launched it was like a cartoon - the car just took off and all the water that had been on it just sat there hanging in the air momentarily, before dropping onto the ground!

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  Jan. 5, 2010 10:31 p.m. mblommel New Reader

  

  Bird of Prey FTW!

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  Jan. 6, 2010 12:04 a.m. curtis73 HalfDork

  I manage an auto repair shop that works on anything. We have everything from a 61 beetle up to an 08 Camry Hybrid, so I feel confident in saying this:

  Unless you are a die-hard DSM fan, don't do it. Timing belt tensioners suck. they eventually let the belt slip a tooth or two and then its time for a new head. Even then, good luck getting the new tensioner (which can cost up to $140 alone) to work right, which means you might be getting to do the head job all over again.

  I fully understand the call... they are an interesting platform. After all, I'm a classic iron hotrodder, so I know all about unreliable things and love them... just giving you a heads up.

  I'm bringing sexy back

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  Jan. 6, 2010 1:50 a.m. mtn SuperDork

  I have nothing to add but this:

  "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein

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  Jan. 6, 2010 4:25 a.m. jrw1621 Dork

  If only there were some input from a trusted source?
  Oh wait...
  

  http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/diamond-stars/

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  Jan. 6, 2010 5:53 a.m. littleturquoiseb HalfDork

  +1 Cramped interior both for people and stuff... Fold the rear seats the day you pick it up and just cosider it a two seater with a decent hatchback.

  +1 Reliable if not totally abused (I went 150K ran hard put away wet, keep the boost reasonable and internally stock)

  +1 find a generally rust free one, not totally modded or riced ... don't fear used well.

  +eleventy billion yes go buy it ... everytime you turn a wrench you'lll make it better or gain 20hp. get it too a nice HP range and good suspension for a grand each and smile everyday as long as you don't need to put anyone in the back seat!

  BTW still one of the best stock sound systems I've ever had in a car with Mini-plug input from the factory! (CD input in 1993 becomes I-pod input in 2003!)

  It's about time you man up, buy a $500 dollar car, and join us on the BA/BE Rally!

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  Jan. 6, 2010 6:35 a.m. redzcstandardhatch New Reader

  a lot of my honda buddies hated DSMs back in the day.

  now, after working on some, having buddies who own them and racing against some, i'm impressed.

  some of the DSM owners i know are some of the most brilliant mechanics and fabricators i know. they say they are about the best cars ever. huh.....

  i think they are a perfect car for a grassroots-lifestyle person. are you paying somebody to work on it? NOPE. is it relatively easy to work on (it is old, japanese, etc). YUP

  can it take crazy power with proper tuning? YUP are parts falling out of peoples asses, and completely proven? YUP

  sounds like a party to me.

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