Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » 200hp Turbo Miata more fun than 400hp LS1 FC? 1 2

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  Oct. 29, 2011 7:40 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  Thanks to the extremely generous nature of Dyintorace I was able to participate in a local track day in the Hogtown Speed Shop $2011 Turbo Miata today.

  

  The event was held at the Gainesville Raceway Road Course which is about a 60 second track with speeds ranging from 20-80mph.

  I put about 10 minutes out on track and had a blast! The car was predictable, quick, tossable, and just plain fun! It dawned on me that this was the most fun I have had out of the 3 events I have done out there including the one where I co-drove Dyinto's 400whp LS1 FC. The FC was well tuned, had a decent amount of tire, a decent upgraded suspension, etc... To say the realization surprised me would be an understatement.
  

  I have been trying to figure out what may have made the first event/FC less fun. All I can come up with is:
  -the FC was far less aggressively sprung with more of an aggressive street setup than track setup.
  -The steering effort on the FC was PAINFULLY high.
  -The FC was really really really fast.
  -I was a bit nervous because it was my first driving event ever.
  -The FC in that trim was a good 800lbs heavier than the Miata.
  -The T56 didn't come close to the Miata box in the ability to enjoy rowing gears. (although you rarely needed to shift with the V8.
  

  Could it be as simple as me having been a nervous little pansy in a less prepared and much more powerful car? With a similar level of prep can the FC match the "fun to drive" factor of the Miata?
  Am I silly for starting a high horsepower V8 FC build when I know I enjoy the heck out of a turbo Miata?

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  Oct. 29, 2011 7:48 p.m. Javelin SuperDork

  Nervous little pansy. The first time I drove an LS1 FC I barely beat my own FB RX-7's time. The last time I drove it I was the third fastest on course. Grow a pair

  (in jest btw )

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Oct. 29, 2011 8:38 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  In reply to Javelin:

  Lol-yep, I need to grow a pair. I do think comfort level with a car on the edge made a big difference today. I need another go at a V8 FC.

  Just one zuccinni as i get there property Vibram all 5 ring finger shoes and boots anticipating everyone uncover.

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  Oct. 29, 2011 8:39 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  It was a fun day! That car is a blast to drive. Wish we could have stayed longer. Maybe the answer is an LS1 in a Miata!!

  Gainesville, FL

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  Oct. 30, 2011 9:25 a.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  Has anyone here driven both a really aggressively prepped FC and an aggressively prepped Miata? Can the FC ever be as intuitive and fun to drive?

  Just one zuccinni as i get there property Vibram all 5 ring finger shoes and boots anticipating everyone uncover.

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  Oct. 30, 2011 10:31 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

  I've driven several ST-prepped Miata's and one XP maxxed FC. The FC did everything the Miata did better except for shifter feel and steering communication. 275 slicks versus 195 street tires probably had the most to do with steering...

  They were both developed by the same company in the same timeframe, so you'd be surprised how similar they feel, even stock.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Oct. 30, 2011 12:03 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  In reply to Javelin:

  My worry was the compromised stock suspension design of the FC would make it harder to get as good. Mac struts in front and trailing arms in the back compared to double A-arms all around for the Miata. It is good to hear otherwise from someone who has driven well prepped examples of both.

  Just one zuccinni as i get there property Vibram all 5 ring finger shoes and boots anticipating everyone uncover.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 8:55 a.m. Javelin SuperDork

  The rear suspension in the FC is actually quite good. There are multiple companies who make parts to make everything work better though. And MacStruts ain't no bad thing these days, the Porsche Boxster/Cayman uses them and have been declared the best handling car by C&D (for what it's worth).

  Honestly, with both cars at full prep I can see the Miata "handling" better (transitions, dealing with uneven surfaces, dialing-in your setup, absolute max G's, etc), but the FC can take more tire both stock and flared, and we all know that contact patch can hide even the most grievous of sins.

  Michael Pinto - 73 AMC Javelin 360 / GoKart / 86 944 Sport / 01 Grand Prix GT / 06 Mazda5 M5

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  Oct. 31, 2011 12:47 p.m. Vigo Dork

  and we all know that contact patch can hide even the most grievous of sins.

  Speaking of which, that thread about 'can camaros handle' has me vaguely wanting one again.

  I think a short, trite answer (offered in all good humor) to the OPs question is:

  Yes, it is more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow. Welcome to GRM.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 12:55 p.m. Greg Voth HalfDork

  In reply to Vigo:

  Yes, it is more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow. Welcome to GRM.

  Generally speaking on the street I agree.
  

  However on track driving a fast car fast is more fun than driving a slow car fast. The slow car is not fast in that environment. Often times its just slow.
  

  A 200ish HP miata is no longer a slow car especially on this course (basically a large autocross or go kart type course)

  BTW Josh,

  Do you know what times you were running? I got down around the +/-1:00 mark and the red Miata with the S2000 plant was reportedly running 56 seconds. We were just self timing with no equipment but getting consistent results with two separate people timing from different locations.
  

  Oddly enough after cording the slicks the street tires were only about a second off.

  I am the the Devil (Insurance Adjuster)

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  Oct. 31, 2011 1:32 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  In reply to Greg Voth:

  We didn't time any runs but I am pretty sure we were faster than you.

  Honestly I don't have a clue how fast we were. The Black/Orange turbo miata was just slightlhttp://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/icons/smilies/laugh-18.pngy faster than me but he was the only car I was close enough to for enough laps to know how we compared. He had more power but we were lighter with more tire/suspension. I am also a rank amateur so I probably did about everything wrong.

  Just one zuccinni as i get there property Vibram all 5 ring finger shoes and boots anticipating everyone uncover.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 1:37 p.m. dyintorace SuperDork

  Greg Voth wrote: ...and the red Miata with the S2000 plant...

  Talk about a cool sounding, seriously fast car. Wow! Imagine a fully built track Miata with a massaged S2000 motor.

  As for the timing, I wish we had thought to do so. I have no clue what we were turning.

  Gainesville, FL

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  Oct. 31, 2011 1:47 p.m. Greg Voth HalfDork

  I didn't know we were timing until later in the day when the field was clearing out. If you guys go out again let me know. I didn't think til after you left but you are more than welcome to drive the RX-7. Then you will see what a real PITA a poorly sorted V8 swapped car feels like.

  That Miata was pretty mean. I was wondering why it sounded good and figured it out once he popped the hood. Ahh S2000 motor. Stripped all the way down too. I can't imagine it being much over 2000 even with the cage.

  The turbo 240SX was pretty quick as well.
  

  I did get the chance to run down the red 911 but he didn't seem to be going all out hard as the car seemed pretty composed. Around the turns I was in a four wheel slide on the street tires. I got on his tail pretty hard for three laps before he let me by. I was happy that it didn't seem like we were giving up much if any to him on the straights.

  I am the the Devil (Insurance Adjuster)

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  Oct. 31, 2011 1:48 p.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

  The one time I drove my friends Bone stock 1st gen Miata > Every other time Ive ever driven a car

  ...srsly

  ...in the world

  Real cars only have one header!

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  Oct. 31, 2011 1:50 p.m. Greg Voth HalfDork

  In reply to 4cylndrfury:

  You need to drive more cars...

  In all reality fun is as subjective as looks.
  

  I have fun sliding around and being on the edge. Some people enjoy a well set up Mini that you just throw into turns and have it stick like glue. I had more fun on the street tires we ran after the slicks got corded. FWD bores me however it is often times much faster than me.

  I am the the Devil (Insurance Adjuster)

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  Oct. 31, 2011 2:23 p.m. Vigo Dork

  A 200ish HP miata is no longer a slow car especially on this course (basically a large autocross or go kart type course)

  So who exactly are you talking to again?

  Think of slow car as interchangeable with 'not scary'. People drive slow cars fast because they feel comfortable doing it. Comfort is where the fun comes from.

  People drive fast cars slow because they think if they drive them fast they will die doing it. Most people cant have fun thinking they are going to die.

  So even if the 400hp FC is faster around the course than the 200hp miata, if the FC makes you nervous and that never changes, it's not going to be fun. That's where the spirit of that 'slow car fast' statement is, i think.
  

  That's why miatas are so popular. They're accessible. You can take a stock miata, go slow, and feel like you are going fast, and feel comfortable. You can make it significantly faster and still feel comfortable in it because it still doesnt make 450 lb ft of snap oversteer at 90 mph.

  I think there is a point where that changes. I have ridden in a ~300 chp miata on a road course and my main impression was "not enough metal around me to be going this fast". I would still build that car as a street car, but if i really wanted a track car that was 11 second 1/4 mile fast, i would probably start with something more substantial, because that's how i would feel comfortable.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 2:55 p.m. Greg Voth HalfDork

  In reply mostly to your comment.

  Main point is that fun is subjective.
  

  I agree that the feeling of being out of control is not often fun. That is why I find little joy in doing ride alongs. I think a little nervousness helps.
  

  Being 100% comfortable gets boring. Might as well take the car on a wine tour. Again that is probably a blast for some people.

  Being on the edge and sliding to me is fun. Probably why I gravitate to rallycross. Lemons is also fun because it is direct door to door competition. I do not slide or run on edge in those races because I dont want to ball up my teams car or someone elses car by being a jackass.

  I know I had similar sized open kart track for about two hours with a stock 1.6 miata. After maybe ten laps (10 - 15 minutes) I was very bored. I parked the car and napped waiting for everyone else to show up for the test day.

  In my opinion of fun a car needs to handle well (not plow hopelessly) and have enough power to kick out the rear on slow turns. The Miata handled well enough but couldn't get out of its own way.

  There was a Cobra that had a snap oversteer issue and ended up with some damage this weekend. I doubt the guy is going to switch it up and start driving a Prius though.

  I am the the Devil (Insurance Adjuster)

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  Oct. 31, 2011 8:45 p.m. amg_rx7 HalfDork

  The Miata is a very fun car to drive.

  Back around 1996 or so, I was at Lime Rock for a track day in my mildly modded FC Turbo II. My friend was there in his mostly stock 1993 Miata. I drove the Miata for part of one session and I had so much more fun than in my FC. The FC is a great car. Very solid suspension, stiff chassis, good brakes, good steering but the Miata was just so much more tossable and just plain more fun to drive IMO.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 8:51 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

  In reply to amg_rx7:

  Yeah, In '05 I brought a bone stock 1991 Miata to the challenge on toyos. Ian drove it with me in the passenger seat. By the time he finished the run he was enthusiastically exclaiming how much he loved Miata's because the just don't do anything wrong. He said you never had to drive around the cars faults.
  

  Ah well-I had a TII as a street car for a few years and loved it and I currently have the parts to build a contender V8FC for next years challenge. If I can't make it as fun as a turbo Miata, I can at least make it waaaaaaaaaaay more outrageous.

  Just one zuccinni as i get there property Vibram all 5 ring finger shoes and boots anticipating everyone uncover.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 9:47 p.m. HiTempguy Dork

  Vigo wrote: I have ridden in a ~300 chp miata on a road course and my main impression was "not enough metal around me to be going this fast".

  How many airbags would you like to go with your minivan, Mr. Soccerdad

  Rallying; It's like skydiving, except you have to dodge trees on your way down!

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  Oct. 31, 2011 10:08 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork

  4cylndrfury wrote: The one time I drove my friends Bone stock 1st gen Miata > Every other time Ive ever driven a car ...srsly ...in the world

  Pretty tough to match a third generation MR2 for enjoyment and involvement.

  I'm a badge snob.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 10:11 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork

  Vigo wrote:

  A 200ish HP miata is no longer a slow car especially on this course (basically a large autocross or go kart type course)

  So who exactly are you talking to again?

  Think of slow car as interchangeable with 'not scary'. People drive slow cars fast because they feel comfortable doing it. Comfort is where the fun comes from.

  People drive fast cars slow because they think if they drive them fast they will die doing it. Most people cant have fun thinking they are going to die.

  So even if the 400hp FC is faster around the course than the 200hp miata, if the FC makes you nervous and that never changes, it's not going to be fun. That's where the spirit of that 'slow car fast' statement is, i think.
  

  That's why miatas are so popular. They're accessible. You can take a stock miata, go slow, and feel like you are going fast, and feel comfortable. You can make it significantly faster and still feel comfortable in it because it still doesnt make 450 lb ft of snap oversteer at 90 mph.

  I think there is a point where that changes. I have ridden in a ~300 chp miata on a road course and my main impression was "not enough metal around me to be going this fast". I would still build that car as a street car, but if i really wanted a track car that was 11 second 1/4 mile fast, i would probably start with something more substantial, because that's how i would feel comfortable.

  I feel exactly this way until the moment I open up the gas for the first time on track. Danger is part of the fun from that point on.

  The fastest car I ever drove was a 550-ish hp Camaro with a fully built Hotchkiss suspension. It had way too much power for the chassis, but that's not why I didn't like it. It was just imprecise and heavy feeling.

  I'm a badge snob.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 10:54 p.m. Vigo Dork

  How many airbags would you like to go with your minivan, Mr. Soccerdad

  You can joke because you arent dead, which pretty much proves the merit of my priorities.

  And for the record my one remaining minivan has more turbos than airbags. Lol!

  Greg, i think the perfect answer is something between, and combining, our two posts. I largely agree with what you are saying.

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  Oct. 31, 2011 11:37 p.m. HiTempguy Dork

  Vigo wrote: You can joke because you arent dead, which pretty much proves the merit of my priorities.

  Pft, whatever Mr. Mom, we should compare how many times each of us have rolled a race car

  Rallying; It's like skydiving, except you have to dodge trees on your way down!

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  Oct. 31, 2011 11:59 p.m. DaewooOfDeath HalfDork

  I haven't even spun a car since I was 16. Does that make me a failure?

  I'm a badge snob.

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